www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Change to the Blue Army of Fatima

Dear Friends,

The Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima has had its name changed to: The World Apostolate of Fatima.

This change has been approved by Rome and the Pope has approved the elevation of this organization to an apostolate of the laity.

One of the reasons why "Blue Army" was dropped was because some countries in which it is active are actually wary of any title with "army" in it . . .

What are your views on any apostolate with the message of Fatima?

Is it outdated since the Russian Orthodox Church is now alive and well in Russia?

Is it still relevant since "Russia has yet to become Catholic?"

Is it anti-ecumenical as a result?

Is it offensive to Orthodox Christians?

Should Eastern Catholics forget about it for this reason?

Alex

That must mean Russian, as they have been giving the Salvation Army trouble because they have Army in their name.

I would suggest that there has been a lot more that a name change and there has been a new focus for the organisation.

P

What is all this about Russia? I have looked up the new organisation and I could not find reference to Russia. I found reference to promoting prayer such as the rosary etc etc.

http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/waofengl.html

Given the fact that the messages of Fatima include prayers for the conversion of Russia, I would assume that it is integral to any presentation on the events surrounding the apparitions.

The question is - is Russia still in need of conversion?

I would argue a qualified "yes" but not for the same reasons as probably intended by the Mother of God at the time of her appearance to the three children. Even though communism has fallen, there is still the need to pray for healing from its ravages. Over 70 years of official atheism tends to take its toll on the faith of a people.

BTW, I am a former pilgrim to Fatima. While there, I was blessed to meet the sister of Francisco and Jacinta. She was an older woman, and when I greeted her, she held my hands, looked in my eyes and said something to me in Portuguese. To this day, I have no idea what she said, but I hope some day to meet her in glory and ask her in person!

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Gordo

I think that everywhere is in need of conversion. Do places cease to be in need of prayers if they are no longer part of a country called Russia. That may have been a problem for them. As borders change and the message of the Gospel is for all (or is it for many )possibly thats why they seems to be not getting caught up in the Russia thing. Those are my humble thoughts on the subject.

P

Dear Pavel,

Yes, the devotion to Our Lady of Fatima of Russian Catholics is certainly different (I believe, but could be wrong) from that of others.

I believe the intent of the Blue Army was (is?) to pray for the conversion of Russia (i.e. so that Russia becomes "in communion with Rome").

I've come across some Orthodox who accept Fatima privately and say the prophecies affirmed there have been fulfilled as the ROC is now alive and well.

There are Fatimite groups who truly do pray for the "conversion" of Russia so that Russia becomes Catholic.

I don't know if this is an overt goal of the World Apostolate of Fatima or not.

My question is then - is prayer for the conversion of Russia which is meant to say to "make Russia Catholic" a legitimate aim within the context of Catholic-Orthodox relations?

I admit there is more than one interpretation of Fatima.

Personally, I just don't see it.

Alex

Maybe the focus should be on making Russia Christian again.

"World Values Survey conducted in 60 countries and directed by the University of Michigan... attended church once a week, a figure that doesn't count attendance at weddings, funerals, christenings and baptisms... despite the fall of communism in Russia, only 2% of all Russians interviewed said they went to church once a week, the lowest level of weekly attendance of any of the countries included in the project. "

http://www.adherents.com/adhloc/Wh_287.html#636

But many of those who follow the Fatima messages believe that Russia must become Roman Catholic, as they are ignorant of any other sui juris Church.

A reawakening of Orthodoxy in Russia would mean in their eyes that the 1984 Consecration of the World to the Immaculate Heart of Mary didn't fulfill the request at Fatima since Russia still would not be Catholic.

The fall of communism in Eastern Europe can be likened to the parable of the seven unclean spirits in the 12th chapter of the gospel of St Matthew. The unclean spirit of communism has disappeared in many places in the former Iron Curtain, but it has been replaced by the unclean spirits of organized crime, prostitution, pornography, drug abuse, occultic practices, secular humanism and the worship of materialism.

Lawrence,

You said it brother!

Dear Lawrence,

You mean that Eastern Europe is fast becoming like Western Europe and North America?

Yep, that really is a problem!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Are we all agreed, then, that the Apostolate of Fatima should NOT be praying for the conversion of Russia to Catholicism - but only for the "unity of all of God's holy Churches?"

Alex

The last thing Russia, or Eastern Europe, needs is another group trying to convert the people.

I have seen enough Mormons, JW's, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc; going through Eastern Europe trying to bring the "Truth" to everyone. Go drive through Sacramento or Seattle area and count how many Russian or Ukrainian Protestant mega-churches you see. You'll need more than your ten fingers.

The last thing the Eastern Europeans need is a Roman Catholic group trying to do the same.

Russia is Orthodox. Let the Moscow Patriarchate provide the religion. If they fail at it, which is somewhat apparent by the mass amount of converts to the Protestant factions, then maybe we, as Eastern Christians, should pray that the Russian Orthodox Church provides spiritual enrichment for the people of Russia. I mean, come on, look how many people here on this forum exult St. Seraphim Sarovsky, or ROCOR, or these Old-Believers. These are all products of Russian Orthodoxy, no? So use the same energy to pray that these Orthodox groups provide the spiritual food needed in Russia.

I am also suspect of ANY Christian/Catholic group that calls itself an Army. I'm sure that the Mother of God, if she even appeared in Fatima, did not demand her followers call themselves an Army. And to me, its just a name change. Their intent won't change. They want to convert Russia into a Roman Catholic country. That's all. The name change means absolutely nothing. I have seen many of the Blue Army "soldiers" (many in my experience are Tridentines/SSPX types) ruin parishes in our Eastern Catholic Churches here in the States. Since a lot of us are Eastern European, they come to our parishes to try pray for the "conversion" of Russia. They leave booklets, pamphlets, flyers, and even holy cards of the Statue of Our Lady of Famita crying, begging for the "conversion" of Russia. A lot, you will find, believe Mary as a Co-Redemptorix. Is that even Catholic dogma? I think not.

There is a group I know of, rather large too, called the Fatima Crusaders..... hmmm........

I also feel that sometimes these Blue Army members forget there are much, much more imortant parts of the Faith than a supposed appartition in Fatima. How about praying for God's mercy for one, or perhaps even Eucharist! Who woulda thunk?!?!

Onward Christian Soldiers, marching off to war! :rolleyes:

-uc

Dear UC you said:

I say:

Actually, those who have converted...or rather, are attending the Protestant factions, are merely starting their spiritual journey. That should not be denied them for they have no concept of God. In time they will become Orthodox for the simple reason that it is the Russian heritage, and people do not give up their heritage, that easily.

Let the Protestants do what they do best, and that is bring the people to Christ, or rather to bring Christ to the people. Their message is simple, and in time it will develop into the 'fullness' of Orthdoxy. (Well I would like to exclude the JW, the Mormons, and the Pentacostals with their elitism). :rolleyes:

As for the Fatima message, I certainly believe in it. What I don't accept though, is this idea that Russia will become Catholic...and to be frank, that has caused a great deal of resentment towards the RCC in Russia. In no part of our Lady's message did she say that Russia must be converted to Catholicm. She said that Russia must be converted, and she said it at the time Lenin came in power. In that sense, conversion means a re-conversion to Christianity.

Zenovia

I certainly don't mind Christians leading others to Christ.

But it's not that simple.

Many Protestants in the process of converting Russians to Christianity also poison the Russians by accusing both the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox Catholics of practicing idolatry because of their veneration of icons.

I have met Russian Protestants who have debated me in an attempt to convert me to Protestantism here in the United States. And they accuse me of unbiblical practices, idolatry, Mary-worship, etc. They even use that Chick tract. :rolleyes:

It's really sad. No, many Protestant missionaries are doing a real disservice.

Let us pray for the conversion of Russia to the Apostolic Faith.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

UC,

There are even some who go as far as claiming that since over 70,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun that the Fatima Revelations go beyond the realm of private revelation into quasi-public revelation just below Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition. Probably those are the ones that you encountered.

As an aside, there's a guy here in town who claims the Blessed Virgin visits him every 13th of the month, just like at Fatima. She comes to the Grotto at the local Shrine Church... supposedly. Not that she couldn't, I just don't think that she does.