www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Change to the Blue Army of Fatima

Dear Gordo,

I wouldn't know - all of our T-shirts up here refer to ethnic concerns!

Alex

Dear Andrew,

Perhaps we could organize the "Green Army" of Our Lady of Kazan for the conversion of those lands?

We would assure all RC's and Protestants that we don't want to get them to leave their churches . . . just yet . . .

Although Ray S.'s post on the kneeling situation shows that there are things the Latins STILL won't stand for!

(Do you think I should go out and do some gardening?)

Alex

At Fatima part of the Blessed Mother's message was that Russia's false teachings would spread throughout the world. Quite obviously she was speaking of communism and not orthodoxy.

At my honorary Eastern parish (Nativity-Ukrainian Rite) Father Demetrius Wysochansky makes frequent mention of Fatima in his homilies.

My favorite shirt says, "age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill."

My next door neighbour ("nex-dorka") has a T-shirt that says, "Grandchildren are the reward for not strangling your teenagers!"

Alex

Although I like this idea, I will say in all seriousness I think those calling for the "conversion" of Russia should look around themselves for those in need of "conversion". They probably have a ready supply at hand, some possibly in their own church. (Maybe even a bishop or two, who knows).

Andrew

While I agree with Andrew about those (and other) Western European countries, I work with Russians and have opportunity to observe many Russians come and go in an informal setting. (The Russian community is HUGE in New York and Connecticut). Some of them are fairly recent immigrants and others go back and forth as students or business people. Sadly, without wanting to elaborate, it seems Russia has a very long way to go before Orthodoxy becomes more than something you just say that you are.

Ofcourse, I am not judging, as this is understandable after coming out of the dark years of communism. However, for now, worldly success and catching up to the material world takes precedence over the religious world...(not much difference there from the rest of the Christian world, since balance between the two is quite difficult and challenging for all)

Alice

Dear Friends,

This discussion about the Blue Army leads me to another question that I would really be interested in hearing your views about.

If you are an EC, and someone approaches you to say they are interested in becoming Orthodox (in communion with Orthodoxy, that is ), and can you assist them in becoming Orthodox - is it legitimate for an EC to do so (ie. without trying to get the person to become Catholic or otherwise influencing the person away from his or her goal)?

A long time ago, I once mentioned here that I had (and continue) to assist people in becoming Orthodox (some EC, but mostly Orthodox), including six former Lutheran pastors (as of this morning, seven).

They write to me and we discuss issues. One pastor actually put the question to me to ask my views about whether he should choose Catholicism or Orthodoxy and to do him a comparison of both.

I did - without casting either in any negative light. I will NOT tell anyone what they should do as I believe that is between God and them.

I tell them why I am Catholic as well - I regularly get e-mails from people responding to articles on my site asking me why I choose to remain Catholic and why I am "not yet" Orthodox. Of course, I tell them I already AM Orthodox . (kidding)

Am I wrong?

Is this compromising one's Catholic faith in any way?

This is connected to the whole issue of praying for the conversion of Russia (that many Fatimist groups DO see as a conversion to Catholicism).

When the Blessed Hieromartyr Leonid Fyodorov was around, he noted in his diary about the large numbers of Russian Orthodox Christians being martyred for their Faith by the soviet communists.

"And these are the people the Poles want to convert!" he remarked.

Alex

Dr. Alex,

I think it depends on who you ask.

These people asked you to help them become Orthodox so you did your duty in assisting them. My dad is Lutheran (sort of ) I would be thrilled if he converted to Orthodoxy as he would finally be able to receive the Holy Mysteries that he couldn't in a Lutheran Church because they only have valid baptisms.

I think that you also did the right thing by comparing and contrasting the Orthodox and the Catholic Faiths.

Our job is to preach the Good News. It's the Holy Spirit's job to do the converting!

Which is a load off of my mind!

Dear Alex,

I think that your approach is the most humble and truly Christian approach. I feel the same way. I will not actively try to convert anyone to either side.

If they want to know about something in Orthodoxy, I will most gladly teach them about the faith tradition I love. If they want to know about something in Catholicism, I will gladly teach them that too! (I have actually catechised RC coworkers and friends on what their own church believes, since they themselves sometimes did not know!) :rolleyes:

I know that the Church is one, though estranged, and however the Holy Spirit moves a person to find his path towards God and the Christian life--and to somewhere that is comfortable culturally, then who am I to be so presumptuous to say that they must find God's spirit where I have found it?!?

There are too many cradle Catholic and Orthodox who call themselves that by name, but are infact agnostic, or estranged from their Church, or who may identify with it only in a cultural sense, or in a prideful and polemic sense, but do not know and care about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in their lives.

...and though I am Orthodox, I have grown to where I am spiritually in Orthodoxy, because of the spiritual nourishment I have received in reading about and hearing Catholic (as well as Evangelical) persons, saints, sermons and prayers. Each experience I have had outside my church has contributed to my personal spiritual path of theosis as positively as each experience I have had within my church.

So, you will get no opposition from me dear Alex.

I know that some of my fellow Orthodox do not understand me, but if one would only look around at the apostasy of society today and how many souls are literally lost, perhaps one *might* understand my position a little better. It is not about pride, polemics and numbers, it is about souls and the Kingdom of Heaven!

I have felt God's Holy Spirit at a Mass as much as I have at an Orthodox
Divine Liturgy. I have witnessed great piety and humility in those in communion with His Holiness, the Pope, as much as I have also with those not in communion with him.

Since there is no schism in Heaven, I believe that the important thing is that one actually get there!

Unfortunately, there is no identifying label of a particular tradition or apostolic affiliation that can guarantee that.

In Christ, our unity,
Alice

Dear Griego Catolico you stated the following:

I say:

I think what she meant was that the conversion would come about as it did. Through the Russian Church. Let's not forget that at the time of the appirition, Lenin came into power. The Soviet Union was now an athiest nation, that sorely needed conversion back to Christianity.

You said:

I say:

The conversion has started because the Russian Orthodox Church is gradually getting itself together. The reunion/reconciliation between the RCC and the Russian Church, is something that hopefully will come about...but it is not what I believe is meant by 'conversion'. And to be honest, I think those that believe it to be thus, have done great harm towards unity. :rolleyes:

You said:

I say:

In this I agree. The Pope is definitely the head of all Christianity. Well, at least the one's that haven't fallen into heresy...such as the main stream Protestants. Actually, when the Pope speaks...all listen, and basically follow what he says. If not immediately, at least after a while. Of course I'm talking about moral issues.

You said:

I say:

Ha! What Patriarch? The one that had to conform to everything the Soviets wanted.

Zenovia

Dear Andrew you said:

I say:

I find it interesting that you should mention the Netherlands. Do you know that a political party has now been formed that believes in paedophilia?

It wants the legal age of children to go from sixteen to twelve, and that all this intolerance should stop. :rolleyes: This new political party will now be on the ballot, unless they find a way to stop them. So there we have it? Where will all this go and when will it stop...if ever, unless we're all struck dead.

It seems that whatever seems scandalous today, soon becomes the norm.

Zenovia

Dear Alice,

I KNEEL to you!

But not on Sundays . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,

Please, DO NOT!

...but if you do, please know that I allow kneelers and cushions!

Fondly,
Alice

In reply to the original question about the name "Blue Army", it relates to Lenin's (or Stalin's) snide remarks(paraphrased) to the effect "How many divisions does the Pope have?"

It has been some years since I have seen the quote and I humbly ask for a correction, but the Blue Army's response to the dictator's remark is to pray for the end of Communism by "armies" of Rosary prayers.

And so this has been achieved (Communism ended) but still much prayer is needed for the true conversion of Russia and the world.

As Father Deacon Lance quite correctly said, don't be embittered by the confused radicalism of Father Gruener, who has been denouced by most Bishops and the Apostolate of Fatima. The Apostolate is a good holy and pious organization.

In a similar line, please do not shake the new found faith of those who have been brought closer to God through apparitions and pilgrimages to those sites. I would indeed tremble before God at my judgment if I was enlightened to find that I caused someone to lose their faith because I made them doubt their conversion.

May the Holy Spirit gift you all with wisdom.