www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Our Lady of Guadalupe

I could take the time to answer you with the traditional Orthodox understanding of how one discerns the call to the priesthood, but I believe you are well entrenched in your position. I'll only say that, specifically "seminary education" is not required because it is a rather late development in the 2000 year history of the church. Nevertheless, appropriate knowledge, and more importantly "testing" is required of every candidate to holy orders (1 Tim 3:10). That is not to say that seminary education is not ideal in this day, but we can all think of examples of those who went to seminary but failed in parishes. (And I'm sure that some of thsoe who did not attend seminary also failed.) Once again, I'm not necessarily defending this practice, but to simply point out that the bishop's canonical perogative is to ordain those whom the community holds up to be ordained after he is tested. There is no conspiracy to water down the gene pool of clergy. (The OCA also has it's own policy that every ordination is approved by the entire Holy Synod. This is not something called for by the Holy Canons, but it is another layer of protection.) My personal feeling is that the crucial problem is the ordination of candidates that recently convert or even convert at seminary! But then, that's another thread (as I guess this should be also)!

Regarding the application of the Typicon, please know that the Clergy Guidelines of the OCA are very clear on this, as well as the OCA Rubrics published by St. Tikhon's. No weddings are allowed on the eves of Sundays or feast days, or on fast days. To the extent that certain priest or certain bishops (mostly those outside of the geographic diocese) choose to ignore those OCA guidelines, this is a tragedy. But the precarious situation of the OCA having ethnic dioceses was permitted as a path to eventual integration into the territorial dioceses. Whether this idea is fruitful or not remains to be seen. There certainly is a unity on a very profound and canonical level between the geographic and ethinc (Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian) dioceses, but on a practical level, much work remains to be done. I am hopeful that more cooperation and standardization can happen, but it is a sensitive situation.

So, I think Jim sounds a bit fatalistic, and is missing all of the tremendous work done by the OCA, and most importantly, its persistent example as a wake up call for an eventual unified American Orthodox Church. I think the OCA brings to the table hundreds of vibrant communities, thousands of pious faithful, and many outstanding priests and bishops. No, not everyone is vibrant or pious or outstanding, but our Lord taught us about the wheat and the chaff. It will always be this way.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

While we have you here, what is the attitude of the Orthodox Church toward Guadalupe?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

May the Lord God bless you!

Alex, to be honest, I'm not sure there is a universal Orthodox "attitude" regarding Catholic apparitions. I know that there was tremendous concern over Fatima in relation to the prayer for the "conversion of Russia."

I have heard certain opinions about Our Lady of Guadalupe being at least "more acceptable" but I think it's a rather futile discussion, at least from an Orthodox point of view, since it is a particularly Catholic apparition. Certainly, the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is much more familiar to Orthodox Christians that other Catholic apparitions. That is, it looks more "Orthodox." But that is rather meaningless.

I think the safest thing that I could say is that Orthodox believers would not be "encouraged" to give devotion to this apparition. It certainly could not be formally used in any way or venerated in the Church's worship. However, that being said, every Orthodox Christian is free to judge for themselves.

And thanks for getting us back on track.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Father Thomas!

(You are of Ukrainian background? I have some Sorokas in my family.)

The whole topic is of great interest to me.

Professor Poselyanin's "Bogomater" showed how some Western pictures of the Mother of God came to be adopted by the Orthodox Church and were even declared "miraculous" by it.

For example, the Horodyschenke Mother of God is actually "Our Lady of the Scapular." The Jesuits' "Madonna de la Strada" is also honoured, being a gift to a Russian priest by an Italian priestly visitor to him.

St Seraphim of Sarov's Icon was also Western, as I understand.

(I just read a sad report in Russian about how St Seraphim of Sarov's Shrine was damaged by a blasphemer who dared approach it with evil and sacrilegious intent.)

I met an Orthodox priest who believed in Fatima, but related its prophecies to the return of Orthodoxy to Russia.

I agree that the symbolism of Fatima has, unfortunately, become one of Catholic proselytism.

There are plenty of Orthodox icons of the Mother of God around to keep Orthodox Christians busy enough!

Have you seen the wonderful website "akafist.narod.ru?" It has so many Akafists,including to the icons of the Mother of God!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

My grandfather was from Belorus (Grodny) near the Polish border. My mother's family, Konik, was from Czechoslovakia. Much of the family on my mother's side is Byzantine Catholic.

Regarding the incidents that you cite, certainly there are isolated examples here and there, but certainly not a trend of Orthodoxy borrowing icons from the West, IMHO.

This brings me to a bit of a criticism that I have with some things that I've read on the board here. Remembering that I am a guest, I beg your indulgence. I find again and again justification for this or that practice because "I saw an Orthodox priest do this" or "I know that such and such bishop does it." I think this is a very dangerous tendency, because we certainly should not be justifying a practice because just because one or two places or priests do it. Unfortunately, I can't think of an immediate example that I've read on this board, but I know I've read it.

Yes, there are isolated examples of Orthodoxy adopting Catholic images. Another example would be the Mother of God "Hortus Conclusus" which hangs in the Tetryakov Gallery in Moscow. It was borrowed from a Czech painting in the late 15th century.

Priest Thomas

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

Certainly, the Orthodox Church doesn't borrow images from the West - these are local traditions that are approved as a result of the "sanctification of long-standing practice."

And there are images that are carry-overs from the Latinized period of the Kyivan Baroque. I came across a website with Slavonic translations of the "Little Office of the Virgin Mary" and Bonaventure's "Psalter of the Mother of God" that were popular in Kyiv and certainly in the lives of such Orthodox saints as Dmitri of Rostov. St Tikhon of Zadonsk was devoted to a form of the "Way of the Cross."

St Seraphim of Sarov certainly practiced the Rosary that he renamed and developed a different explanation for it.

St Nicodemos of Mt Athos translated a number of western books, while renaming them and not mentioning their original authors, including the Spiritual Exercises of St Ignatius Loyola. Even the "Spiritual Combat" went through a couple of Orthodox rewrites, by Nicodemos and St Macarios of Corinth and then later by St Theophane the Recluse. That doesn't take away from the fact that its original author was an Italian Catholic priest.

St Alexis Toth certainly tolerated the Latin practices of his Orthodox converts from Greek Catholicism, as he was one himself.

To do otherwise, as he knew, would have done irreparable damage to souls.

And the Orthodox Church has an established tradition of leaving converts' private devotional lives alone.

St Procopius of Ustiug was a German and he died with his Latin Psalter beside him, for example.

And the Western Rites of Orthodoxy have now allowed for many Western practics to be legitimately conducted within an Orthodox context.

Orthodoxy's flexibility and openness in this regard is one of the things I've always admired about it.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Here in the southwest I am glad to say that the Eparchy of Van Nuys observes the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe December 12th, and also had a special Liturgy for Thanksgiving. Our local parish had a surprise visitor, Archbishop Nathaniel of the OCA, who came to the Thanksgiving Liturgy with his cousins whom he was visiting. There is something to be said for the success of both the Roman and Byzantine Catholics in integrating local culture into their observances. I am looking forward to the Feast December 12th.

As to the credentials subtopic, I would feel the same way about that in the secular world if an underqualified person were to assume a position of authority that exceeded his/her capabilities or knowledge.

Hey but if you're Ukrainian you would have to celebrate Our Lady of Guadalupe the 25th December

As for what Orthodox people think, I have to say that as Orthodox christians, people are not obligated to believe in the Apparitions but there's nothing that explicitly forbides to believe in them.

There are various opinions (and such plurality of opinions exist among Catholics too!) I have met some "angry" converts to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism who are opposed to the Apparition and say it is just manipulation and by ther Spaniards. But there are also lots of Orthodox who in fact believe in it, and at the same time there are some Bishops of the Catholic Church here who not only reject the Apparitions but deny the existence of St Juan Diego.

I believe that the most important think about Our Lady of Guadalupe is the icon itself, and I have met Orthodox priests here who encourage the devotion to the icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and some invited priests from other countries have asked about the miraculous icon.
As for the Apparition, there's nothing in its content that could invite false interpretations or one-sided and partial views (like in the recent Apparitions), but I think we have to give it a propper and fair place without exagerating. The most important thing is that it is an icon of Our Blessed Mother.

I don't doubt that the OCA has made important strides toward restoring a unified orthodoxy to the United States, even though the Greeks maintain a larger base. I even know of some of its wonderful work, such as the extensive on-line music available at its national website, and its collaboration with other jurisdictions in charities. I can only speak for what I have seen of its operation in Arizona where time and again the OCA has not been able to grow membership. The Phoenix area has about 3 million people now and 2 OCA churches, one being Roumanian. Other jurisdictions have been more successful, particularly the Greeks, and to a lesser extent the Antiocheans. Even The Chaldeans (Assyrians with Rome) now have 3 congregations here. Tucson with 400,000 people has no OCA parish at all. There is only one full-fledged OCA parish of the Diocese of the West in the entire state. Something's wrong with the picture, and has been for quite some time, and nobody seems to have a handle on how to fix it.

Dear Remie,

Hmmm . . . that really is odd!

I studied the Guadalupe Madonna as a "social phenomenon" in anthropology class.

Even the most agnostic anthropologists wrote and maintained that Guadalupe was a medium by which the oppressed Natives of Latin America rose in ascendancy in a number of ways since the Guadalupe Apparition occurred to St Juan Diego who was not a Spaniard and the entire story illustrated the plight of his people.

Those misinformed people don't really know what they are talking about!

Oh, you did mention they were converts!

Sorry, that explains everything!

Alex

To all of our Latin American brothers and sisters as well as to all who have a love of the Mother of God of Guadalupe...may you have a most happy feast day and may She always watch over you and yours; guarding, guiding, protecting and bring you safe home to Her Son. Remember me in your prayers. Don

Dear Forum:

Just a reminder for those devotees to Our Lady of Guadalupe:

AmdG

Everything you could want to know about her and devotions to her. Don

http://www.sancta.org/

Bless, Father Don!

I am working on an Akathist to Our Lady of Guadalupe.

I'll let you see it when I'm finished to tell me what you think!

Alex