www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Our Lady of Guadalupe

Hello all,

I would like to find an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

David

Dear David,

Robert Lentz has two beautiful icons of our Lady of Guadalupe, one of the actual image and another with the image on the tilma of St Juan Diego.

www.bridgebuilding.com [bridgebuilding.com]

God bless,

Alex

Have you heard of this website, MonasteryIcons.com?

http://www.monasteryicons.com/

In the search window I typed "Guadalupe" and I received this result:
http://www.monasteryicon s.com/cgi-...search.x=12&submit_action_search.y=7 [monasteryicons.com]

Do you like this one?
http://www.monasteryicons.com/cgi-b...03262550&action=DETAI L&item=607 [monasteryicons.com]

[Linked Image]

Or the full size?

http://www.monasteryicons.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi?randomizer=734569354&action=DETAIL& item=573 [monasteryicons.com]

[Linked Image]

Cordially in Christ,

BradM

From http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.htm

A Word About "Monastery Icons"
provided by Fr. Anthony Nelson

Updated September 15, 2000

The "Light of Christ Monastery" and the Convent of the Virgin Mary in Borrego Springs, CA., formerly the "Gnostic Orthodox" in Geneva, Nebraska (Holy Protection Gnostic Orthodox Monastery and the St. John of Kronstadt Gnostic Orthodox Convent) are "monastic communities" of self-styled monks and nuns. They began in Oklahoma City in the 70's, when their current "Patriarch"�Abbot Bishop George Burke�showed up in town (newly run away in the dead of night from the Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Monastery in Boston, where he had attached himself) calling himself "Swami" something-or-other (I can't begin to spell it).

He had been raised Church of God-Anderson, near Bloomington, Illinois, gravitated to Chicago and loosely affiliated himself with Roman Catholicism. After a while he began attending the Levitt Street OCA Cathedral, and later the Synod Cathedral, where he got himself baptized by Bishop Seraphim. He then migrated to California, where he joined with Yogananda, and worked P.R. for him. Then he went to Boston to Holy Transfiguration Monastery "to learn Orthodox monasticism"�according to him. In Oklahoma City he started a Hindu community that grew to about nine monks and three nuns. One day, in the late 70's, he announced to the brethren that they had "outgrown" the spiritual possibilities of Hinduism, and were going to become Christian. They then constituted themselves as the "Holy Protection Old Catholic Benedictine Monastery of the Primitive Observance." The Swami got himself consecrated a bishop by the self-styled "Old Catholic" bishop at St. Hilarion's Center in Austin, Texas (although he�the former "Swami"�stated categorically that it was unnecessary, because he had been a Roman Catholic bishop during the Middle Ages in a previous life!).

Many may remember this group as having been featured on various prime-time news shows (P.M. Magazine and Real People) in the late 70's/early 80's as constituting the volunteer Fire Department in the little town of Forest Park, Oklahoma, and also as raising ostriches on the grounds of their property. I remember seeing them on television one night while I was living at St. Tikhon's Seminary in Pennsylvania in about 1980, and wondering just what kind of "order" or "religion" they were. Little did I dream that I would come into intimate contact with them only a year or two later when I was assigned to Oklahoma City by the Antiochian Archdiocese.

In about 1981 "Bishop George" decided that they had outgrown Old Catholicism, and they became "Holy Protection Orthodox Monastery." They dressed as Orthodox monks and did the services impeccably well, as George had learned in Boston. Then, in 1985 or so, they remodeled their chapel again and became "Coptic"�serving their own version of the Liturgy of St. James and dressing in a form of Coptic monastic garb. They even succeeded in having Indian and Egyptian Coptic Christian clergy concelebrate with them, falsely claiming various kinds of non-Chalcedonian "Apostolic Succession" - claims which those Coptic Christians accepted without investigation.

I walked in on them one day and found them doing a curious service modeled after Hindu worship, in which they were offering fruit and flowers to the icons of Christ and the Theotokos in their chapel. The prayers were an interesting (although sacrilegious and blasphemous) blend of the Trisagion prayers and Hindu worship. During all of this, they maintained a second, secret chapel on the premises. Here they practiced magical evocation and demonolatry. I received into Orthodoxy several lay persons who were a part of their "secret Order"�coming from various Protestant backgrounds. These particular individuals finally began to wonder if they were really "Orthodox" and "Christian" when, on a trip to Texas with the monks, they saw the monks and nuns bow down before the idol in the Hare Krishna temple in Dallas, and Abbot Bishop George refused to bless the food served in the Krishna restaurant because "it was already blessed, having been offered to the idol." These former members of their cult and one former monk brought to me all of their secret rituals,vestments, history, and associated blasphemous and really frightening materials. It took me well over a year of working with these individuals to get them over their fear of the psychic and spiritual retaliation with which the Abbot had threatened them if they ever revealed the group's secrets. I still have these materials, and they would be laughable in their sophomoric secret-society silliness if they were not so seriously believed and practiced.

The group left Oklahoma under difficult circumstances in regard to legal problems concerning the estate of a novice (son of a powerful state politician) who died in India. All novices were required to make a pilgrimage to India to interview with, and receive the blessing of, one "Mother Anandamoy"�a Hindu holy woman�who must approve them for membership in the Community.

One of their former monks who had left the group and took a job in Oklahoma City (and personally continued their occult practices privately) once made the statement: "Orthodox Priests are like camels. They carry a cargo of immeasurable worth, with no comprehension of its value." The Daily Oklahoman, the largest circulation newspaper in the state, once carried a color picture on the front page of one of it's secondary sections depicting one of their "priests." He was shown sitting at a table during a regional "Psychic Fair" doing a Tarot Card reading.

On another occasion, after I had learned their secrets and forbade my parishioners to have anything to do with them, Abbot George announced during one of his sermons that he, in a previous life, had been one of the Christian Martyrs who suffered under Diocletian, and I (Fr. Anthony) was the Roman who led him to his martyrdom. He also claims that, during a pilgrimage to visit Mother Anandamoy in India, he was killed in a car accident in New Delhi, but because his "work" here was incomplete, was immediately reincarnated in his body and survived.

"Patriarch George" of the "Gnostic Orthodox Church" admitted in an interview in the Omaha World Herald that his "Patriarchate" covered only 5 or 6 acres. By the way, why they chose Nebraska is a mystery: Abbot Bishop George announced, following a visit to Hawaii for an international peace conference in approximately 1985, that the Goddess of one of the volcanos appeared to him and promised to give him the island if he would relocate his community there.

Apparently that offer was not good enough because, after first relocating in Nebraska, today they are the "Light of Christ Monastery" in California. They claim to be the exclusive remnant of a spurious so-called "Western Orthodox Church" descended from, the Syrian Jacobite (Monophysite) Church of the East.

They have one "iconographer" there who paints all their pictures (please, not icons). All are "blessed" with one of their occult rituals before being shipped, and they support themselves to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars per year selling the demonic things. Many Roman Catholic bookstores sell them but, happily, most Orthodox sellers of religious items have discovered who and what they are and no longer do business with them.

Please don't buy their pictures�they are spiritually very dangerous.

Actually you can avoid the infamous monasteryicons and support a Byzcath monastery at the same time go to

Holy Ressurection Monastery [hrmonline.org]

They have a nice Our Lady of Guadalupe icon for on sale, at least it was on sale the last time I was there. I think this is the correct link, if not one of the other posters will be able to send you the the Holy Ressurection Site.

I hope this helps

I know that there's a parish in Poland (Polish Orthodox Church) which has an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, and it is venerated by both Catholics and Orthodox, in Slovakia there's another icon which is also venerated by Orthodox.

Dear Nik,
Regarding "Monastery Icons" and "Bishop George":

is this the same Abbot George Burke from Saint George Press, Geneva, Nebraska?

I have two booklets of his I had ordered years ago
entitled: The Name of Jesus and Dwelling in the Mirror. copyright 1989

This Abbot George teaches the Jesus prayer as saying the name of Jesus three times while breathing in and then when breathing out.
He teaches that the Jesus prayer we are familiar with "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" is incorrect. We should only say the name of Jesus.
Denise

Although the initial poster was looking for a source for an icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, Nik's reply with regard to the monastery. icons folks gives rise to another concern I have had for some time about orthodox jurisdictions not in union with Rome, their vulnerability to subversion by johnny-come-lately heretical groups.Other examples that come to mind are the Ben Lomond scandal within the Antiochean Archdiocese, and the Christ the Savior Brotherhood's successful (so far) infiltration of the OCA. Is it a lack of episcopal oversight that is causing this? I ask that, because in addition to each orthodox bishop's acting like he has his own fiefdom with its own eccentric rules, frequently their priests are just as eccentric in their observance of rubrics and customs, changing them as it suits them personally, at the expense of the congregation's trust. Their bishops appear to never even know or care, until the situation gets so explosive that they have to intervene with punitive actions. Greater standardization and stronger episcopal oversight with a synod that "hangs together" could fix that. Sorry to get off topic.

Dear Jim,

I don't think that being in union with Rome is a safeguard against such influences!

At least Orthodoxy identifies such groups and warns their members against them, as our Nik has done with his post.

(I think Nik should be a bishop, once he's done "Orthodoxing" - love y'a big guy!).

I've attended Catholic schools for years and have met Catholics who are masons, for example.

They were highly placed within the Catholic education system, and the chaplains knew they were masons and told me they even had their bishops' blessing to be!

Orthodoxy is way ahead in this department - I think the Catholic Church is way too tolerant of such.

And, let's remember that one of the greatest customers for the icons at the above gnostic monastery is the . . . Roman Catholic Church.

Alex

First, as a priest of the OCA, I question where you're getting your information, since your conclusion is so far off base. The Ben Lomond "scandal" (as you put it) happened in a different jurisdiction, so I'll not comment, but I'll remind you that there are two sides to every story. Those who were intimately involved will know the situation, but there are enough archives spread throughout the internet to get a more complete story.

However, regarding the former members of Christ the Savior Brotherhood that have entered into the Orthodox faith, your characterization both of their entry being an "infiltration" of the Orthodox Church in America and of the bishop's oversight "lacking" is highly innacurate and highly inflammatory.

I know many of the parishes that came into the Orthodox faith from their former delusion. They are sincere and pious people that are seeking communion in the fulness of the Christian faith. There is no reason to believe that they were accepted while holding gnostic teachings. They were required to renounce their former confession as are all converts to the Orthodox faith.

The Orthodox Church in America, being a cannonical autocephalous church, adheres to the apostolic teaching that each bishop is the highest authority in his own diocese. There is no universal jurisdiction in Orthodoxy. This also goes for the Holy Synod. Although the Holy Synod may have guidelines or even policies that must be followed, ultimately the bishop is the decision-maker in all competent matters within his own diocese. If your conclusion is that this is a fiefdom, then so be it. This is simply the apostolic faith.

I have never heard of a bishop within the OCA "never knowing or caring." Ever. How did you come to such an erroneous conclusion? I've been a member of the OCA all of my life, my father, grandfather and two uncles also being priests, and I know of what I speak. That is not to say that the bishops are perfect. But they certainly do not behave irresponsibly as you've characterized them.

Finally, it has been my experience that in the ever-increasing incidents of entire communities leaving their former confession to embrace the Orthodox faith, I would say that Orthodoxy in general, and the OCA in particular, is only exercising what the Lord Jesus calls us to - Mercy and Compassion.

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Thomas,

Excellent response!

Don't you find that Catholics can sometimes be annoying?

Alex

While I largely agree with Father Thomas Soroka's reply to Jim, I also believe that Jim did make some important points.

The bishops in the Orthodox Catholic Church definitely have a wide-ranging authority to adjust tradition as needs within their dioceses dictate. Obviously there are certain bounds that they should not pass, but really the concilliar mechanism is the formal one in place to correct any severely errant practices. A clergyman or non-ordained layperson may call into question a particular practice, but authority to investigate and correct a bishop lies with his brothers. This is far closer to the scriptural and apostolic model than the one that we find in the Roman Catholic Church.

However, what Jim is getting at is witnessed to by an inexplicable inconsistency, even WITHIN each diocese, that even leaves room for contradictory directions. Here is an example from my own diocese within the OCA.

My diocese was administered for many years by a presiding bishop who, on paper, had prohibited Vesperal Divine Liturgies not prescribed by the rubrics. Still, many parishes in the diocese continued or even began to hold Vesperal Divine Liturgies on mid-week feast days "because people are working Monday-Friday mornings." Then they began holding the same for feast days such as the Nativity of the Lord, on which almost no one is working in the morning. The practice went so far that they even began holding Vesperal Divine Liturgies on Sunday evenings, until I challenged the local presbyters on it. Even the midnight Paschal Divine Liturgy is now held at 7:00 PM in some diocesan parishes, "because the people voted for it."

In all of this, the presiding bishop was silent or unaware, even having appointed an auxilliary bishop to assist him in the administration of this diocese.

A new presiding bishop then took over administration of the diocese. The new presiding bishop had been even stricter in prohibiting such non-prescribed Vesperal Divine Liturgies in his former diocese. A clergyman new to my diocese then asked the auxilliary bishop what was the policy regarding such Vesperal Divine Liturgies, who responded that it was OK with him, or words to that effect, which the presbyter relayed to the people. In another parish, same city, same diocese, the presbyter refused to hold a Vesperal Divine Liturgy on the basis of the presiding bishop's instructions.

It seems that indeed the practices are sometimes inconsistent, contradictory, eccentric, or, at the very best, not well-explained to the faithful. I don't think that this is planned or welcomed, but the result of a deep-seated congregationalism that has grown to the point where many bishops fear correcting their laity. I'm not saying that there should be no differences in practice within a diocese. But one has to wonder when a visiting bishop in an OCA parish corrected applause at the end of the liturgy with the order that applause was not appropriate and not to be done, "at least when I'm here." If its wrong in that parish, it should be wrong all of the time, not just when the bishop is visiting.

It is a confusing and sometimes sad situation, but still closer to the scriptural and apostolic model than the other available model that the RCC offers.

I think the problem of Vesperal Divine Liturgies is probably the best example, if not one of the few examples of inconsistencies between parishes and dioceses. As an observer, and not a bishop, it is my educated guess (and only that) that the disallowance on paper but the allowance in practice could be due to the fact that Vesperal Liturgies (for all feasts) are truly an "innovation" (a loaded word, I know) yet there may be the measured tolerance of the practice to allow for working families and particular parish or priestly situations (such as, if a priest hold secular employment). However, that's a quagmire that will have us simply going in circles. And it should be noted that the OCA as a national church has no specific policy on the subject. On the other hand, a priest, at his ordination, promies to follow the rubrics of the church and not to "innovate." So yes, I acknowledge that this could be a problem and confusing to the people. However, a dictatorial edict from above may be even more damaging, especially where the practice is already well entrenched. Indeed, pastoral sensitivity is an art, not a science.

Priest Thomas

Dear Andrew,

Owing to my stupidity and dim-wittedness, I don't quite understand your point on how Orthodoxy is closer to scriptural models of authority than the RCC.

Could you elaborate for his idiot (who never attended seminary)?

Alex

I hear Fr. Thomas' message, and I can see why he says what he says. It's different in Pennsylvania. Many OCA parishioners here say the same thing about their parishes back home in the east, and they wish it were like that here, too. However, where a bishop speaks via newsletter quarterly to His congregations, and waxes nostalgically about 17th century episcopal authority that he can no longer have (The OCA does have lay participation in its governance,), and his priests claim they know what the bishop wants in detail without anything coming written down to the laity or without being validated, it is hard to know where he really stands. Add to that the lack of sufficient standard seminary education of some of the OCA clergy and hierarchy here, and what gets presented in some areas is a substandard church that has difficulty maintaining the respect of the community it wants to serve, because it lacks generally accepted credentials for doing so, or doesn't know how to. After all, nowadays ministers who are ordained without sufficient seminary education are subject to question, including bishops, even orthodox ones.

And the lack of consistency in applying the typikon is truly amazing. The local OCA bishop forbids Saturday afternoon weddings, and only permits them inside the church. The OCA Roumanians under a different bishop have had Saturday afternoon weddings (with instrumental music before and after ) based on economia. I know, because I was one of the musicians. It was even in an outdoor garden at a resort. Go figure.