www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Polish National Catholic Church ? / Organization of E Rite churches

Does anyone care to comment on the Polish National Catholic Church ???

I see on the Byzcath web site they are listed as a church of Irregular Status. I visited the thier website and see that they are based in Scranton.

Just curious how they are related to the Catholic Church, becuase they have a lot of Parishes here.

Also I want to comment on the organization of the Catholic and Eastern Rite Churches.

I finally understand that the Ukranian Catholics are in my area are in the Eparchy of Philly,

The Byzantine Catholics are under Eparchy of Passaic.

(The Diocese of Scranton seems to by oblivious to anything other that thier Latin Rite Churches)

I see that the Russian Orthodox churches are in their own Eparchy.

Any comments ???

During the past few months over this long winter I have researched this on the Internet and visited some Eastern Rite Churches.

To my knowledge, the Polish National Catholic Church was formed in the late 1800's in Scranton PA. They were declared schismatic by Rome immediately after their formation. The crux of their formation was to minister to their faithful in Polish. After they where formed, the entered onto the Old Catholic communion of Utrecht (Netherlands) thus renouncing the first Vatican Council. They have made liturgical changes to the sacraments and liturgy, and have incorporated veneration as saint such as the declared Catholic heretic Savranola. The liturgics resemble mainly a western charcter of the old mass. They have a married episcopate, and clergy, and the church has been very divisive over the ordination of women into major orders. This has put them into odds with the Old Catholic communion.

In my own opinion they are "irregular" by being catholic in name only. They do not submit to the present teachings of wither the Church of Rome or any Orthodox Church. You can form whatever opinion you like from this. Many of the causes of their seperation from Rome were resolved with Vatican II, but in their short history have ventured far enough away to make any reunion an extremely difficult task.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Father Anthony+

Their website proclaims them to be a Christain Denomination. Supposedly they have a large building on Pittston Ave in Scranton.

I can not recall ever passing it when going up Pittston Ave.

Just another example the enthnic/religous groups that settled in Northeastern PA. All the people came over to work in the mines and they settled in enclaves of thier own kind and religion.

One North Main Street in Wilkes-Barre : St Mary's - Byzantine Catholic (Russian ?), St. Stanaslaus Kosta - Polish Roman Catholic, St Mathew - Slovak Lutheran, Sacred Heart - Slovak Roman Catholic, Holy Resurection - Russian Orthodox, St Johns (Now merged w/ Sacred Heart) Irish Roman Catholic, down the cross steet Ss. Peter and Pauls, Ukranian Catholic. (There is also a Methodist and a Christan Fundemtalist denomination on N. Main)

Greetings,
The PNC is an Old Catholic group, the largest in the United States.

It seems that Slavs of all types had trouble with the predominately Irish episcopate of the Roman Catholic church in the late 19th century. The Poles had very similar complaints as the Greek rite Catholics, and at the same time period. Many Greek Catholics returned to Orthodoxy via the Russian Metropolia (OCA) and the Poles essentially returned to pre-Vatican I Catholicism by way of the Old Catholics. They translated the Tridentine liturgy into the vernacular (Polish) soon afterward.

The real issues the Poles had to grapple with were very parochial concerns, the bishops seem not to have taken their issues seriously. The Roman Catholic church addressed many of their complaints (lack of Polish priests and lack of Polish bishops) after the schism was under way, sort of closing the barn door after the horses ran out. Since this occcured midway through the era of mass migration from the Austro-Hungarian empire the Roman Catholic hierarchy did everything it could the discourage new immigrants from joining the PNC.

I don't think that they attract many modern immigrants from Poland. Today most of the PNC that I have encountered around Chicago are basically all-American types, and quite a lot of them have non-Polish names. They once had a strong relationship with the Protestant Episcopal church in the USA, many PNC attend Episcopal churches when they move to an area that has no PNC parishes.

The PNC have also engaged in talks with the RC. Two areas may be difficulties in the discussions for reunion: they are keen to retain title to their own parish property and as Father Anthony has indicated their bishops may be married, just like the Episcopalians.

They have a very nice liturgy (from a layperson's perspective) which they now offer in English and Spanish in some places. I believe (not certain) that PNC are allowed to take communion in RC churches.

In Christ,
Michael

Just goes to show us how many religious groups are out there.

There is still a Church in Pittston that does the old Latin Tridentine Mass. I think not under the Pope - I think they are associated with that Bishop Leferbe or whatever he was called - the group shuns the new mass and go back to pre-Vatican II traditions.

Concerning the other part of the question: the Eastern Catholics.

Ideally there should be only one bishop per city, and in keeping with that canon the early Greek Catholics were expected to be supervised by the local Ordinary, who would be Roman Catholic since the RC church was already established in North America. For example, today Russian Catholics have no hierarchy in the USA and they would be under the local Ordinary who is technically responsible for their care.

Unfortunately things did not go too well for the Greek Catholics in the 19th century, in some instances they were refused permission to build parish churches of their own. The bishops tended to want the Greek Catholics to conform to Roman Catholicism and join an RC parish. Some Greek Catholic parishes were probably built without permission of the bishop, a clear act of disobediance from the bishop's point of view.

The bishops also did not like the married clergy, and opposed the presence of married clergy in their dioceses. The bishops also didn't have title to the property in those days, this was irksome.

After grief and schism Rome stepped in to provide an ordaining bishop for the Greek Catholics in the USA. It was a case of too little and too late, this bishop did not have independant authority over the Greek Catholic parishes, but needed cooperation from the local Ordinaries.

Eventually separate Eparchies were erected for the Ukrainians and Rusyns. I believe that Rome could justify this move because the local Ordinaries largely mishandled the Greek Catholics from the beginning, but ideally these separate overlapping Eparchies should not even be necessary, they are a concession.

The situation today is certainly an improvement over the situation 100 years ago. The Eastern churches are being encouraged to return to their own traditions and the Eparchs are capable of running their own affairs with very little outside influence (except for Rome, of course!)

Michael

St. Mary
695 North Main Street
Wilkes Barre, PA 18705

St. Mary is a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. I saw you wondered what type of Byzantine Church it was.

That is correct. St Mary's is a Ruthenian Byzantine church. I was wondering about the Nationality of the parish.

I went to a liturgy there once and most of it was not in English. I wonder if it was Russian or High Slavonic. I could not tell.

Getting back to the subject of the Polish National Catholic Church, there are many Polish Roman Catholic Parishes.

So it seems some of the immigrants went one way, while many more stayed with the R.C. Church.

Yes, the Polish National Church was started in the late 1800's. A Roman Catholic priest was ordained by an Old Catholic Bishop. His name was Huder. They have a parish in Philadelphia too. (St. Valentine's). The RC diocese of Scranton did not want to send a Polish speaking priest to them so they broke away. Yes, I understand that they are in talks with the RC Church as well.

My husbands grandparents were in the founders of All Saints PNC in Carnegie, PA. His grandmother loved JPII and they (members of the Church) took several trips to Rome for special occasssions. Deacon Stan was Baptised there and when we got serious about seeking a Church home as a young married couple over in Steubenville, Ohio the Lord took us to ST. Josephs Ruthenain Byzantine in Toronto, Oh. He longed to have the same 'small t' traditions as his grandmother did. His memroies were so fond of Pascha in her home. They are truly very different Churches, but they have a lot in common because of the ethenicity.

Pani Rose

I think the PNC is in communion with the OCA (if not other Orthodox Churches), aren't they?

I've heard they lost Apostolic succession by promoting a priest to bishop without having him consecrated (Hudar?). I've also heard they let some guys get married after ordination. Let me add that I'm from the lower coal region of Pennsylvania (Scranton's the upper coal region, WAY North of the Mountain, as we say), and there's some PNC churches. We never got along with them. Some of this might be myth.

Also, don't forget there's a good deal of Ruthenians who went into communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch about 70 years ago, who now constitute the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese, and the Bishop lives in Johnstown, PA and they've got numbers in PA. I've got a lot of ACROD friends, and they seem to be putting out vocations like mad -- at least, they've got a lot of subdeacons, anyway. They're also starting a monastery at their seminary in Johnstown I hear.

The Polish National Catholic Church has a unique canon on the marital status of the priests: one is forbidden to marry until a year or so after ordination. The reason for this is probably the desire that a newly-ordained priest should serve some time as an assistant, so as to learn the practicalities of pastoral life.
Yes - the Polish National Catholic Church attracted about 10% of American Poles (although its credit union attracted over 25%). Exploring the reasons for the original break would provide some worth-while reflections on the US Catholic hierarchy of the time and the difficulties experienced when that hierarchy was faced with new and unfamiliar arrivals.

Incognitus

The PNC is not in communion with the OCA or any other Orthodox Church. I believe that at least unofficially, their laity may be admitted to at least communion in the Roman Catholic Church. Officially, they are not in communion with either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, though they might want to be.

As far as their first bishop, Hudar part of what you wrote is true, but I believe that his ascension to the episcopacy is in line with the standards of the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht.

In Christ,
Father Anthony+

Bless, Father Anthony,

Just a comment about your reference to Jerome Savonarola as an "heretic."

In fact, while he was excommunicated by Pope Alexander VI, this hasn't prevented the Dominican Order and the citizens of Florence from honouring him as a local saint ever since.

I think historians have shown that just before he was hanged (as we know, they put iron shoulder pads on him and hung him over a fire with two of his Dominican associates), the pope withdrew the excommunication and this was read in public.

As was the tradition of the time, the Dominicans began honouring him as the "Apostle of Florence" with medals, pictures and even Masses said in his honour as "Il Beato Girolamo Savonarola."

St Philip Neri and St Catherine of Genoa, both being from Florence, wore a medal of Bl. Jerome Savonarola and when this was found on the body of St Philip Neri, it was reported to the authorities of Rome as a possible deterrent to his canonization.

But the Pope of the day ordered a "praetermissus" or for this to be passed over.

Pope Julian allowed Savonarola's picture to be painted at the Vatican over a doorway - but without any inscription.

He wanted to canonize Savonarola but was told that the Medicis were too powerful and this could cause trouble in Italy.

When asked by a Cardinal how the RC Church could canonize someone it had condemned and burned, the Pope replied, "It is sin itself that pollutes - the confession of sin does not pollute!"

The Dominican Order continues to privately honour Savonarola to this day (there is a Dominican whose Cause has been introduced who took the name "Jerome" for Savonarola and venerated him throughout his life).

The Archbishop of Florence, has, some years back, again reintroduced the Cause of Savonarola at Rome, since his veneration is popular among the Catholics of Florence still (May 13th is the feast day observed there).

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky likewise privately venerated Savonarola and died with a book about him in his hands!

As you know, a number of Orthodox writers have positively commented on the life and writings of Savonarola over the years.

That the Polish National Catholic Church venerates Jerome Savonarola is no insurmountable issue for eventual reunion with the RC Church.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex Roman
Member
Society of Girolamo Savonarola

The PNCC has a valid bishops and its teachings are orthodox although they obviously reject Vatican I. They were in communion with the Episcopal Church until 1977. Intercommunion was rescended when the ECUSA started to ordain women. In 2003 they were kicked out of the Utrecht Union because they refused communion with those members who had started to ordain women and sanction homosexual unions. They entered talks with the Catholic Church in 1994. They also have began talks with the Antiochain Western Rite Vicariate.

They are allowed communion in Catholic Churches and they will give Communion to Catholics. Liturgically they use both the Tridentine and Novus Ordo although with the NO they have their own Eucharistic Prayers they formulated. General Absolution is part of the penitential rite as those over 21 are not required to go to individual confession.

In my experinece, much like my own Byzantine Catholic Church, the PNCC has lost most of its children to the Latin Catholic Church because of lack of availability of PNCC Churches outside the Rust Belt, many just went to the local Latin Catholic parish. And after Vatican II and the election of Pope John Paul II a lot of the old complaints could not be upheld.

Savonarola was not a heretic nor has he ever been condemned as such, although some of his writings and sermons were placed on the Index. His execution was related to the "crimes" he committed in stirring up the populace of Florence against the de Medicis and condemning the personal immorallity of Pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia).

Fr. Deacon Lance

This Orthodox writer also comments positively on the life and writing of Savonarola.

In Christ,
Andrew

Friar Savonarola, portraying the insincerity of the clergy, once said:

"In these days, prelates and preachers are chained to the earth by the love of earthly things. The care of souls is no longer their concern. They are content with the receipt of revenue. The preachers preach to please princes and to be praised by them. They have done worse. They have not only destroyed the Church of God. They have built up a new Church after their own pattern. Go to Rome and see! In the mansions of the great prelates there is no concern save for poetry and the oratorical art. Go thither and see! Thou shalt find them all with the books of the humanities in their hands and telling one another that they can guide mens� souls by means of Virgil, Horace and Cicero ... The prelates of former days had fewer gold mitres and chalices and what few they possessed were broken up and given to relieve the needs of the poor. But our prelates, for the sake of obtaining chalices, will rob the poor of their sole means of support. Dost thou not know what I would tell thee! What doest thou, O Lord! Arise, and come to deliver thy Church from the hands of devils, from the hands of tyrants, from the hands of iniquitous prelates."


If you ask me, we could use a few MORE of his preaching these days...but I suppose that many bishops wouldn't respond well to that idea.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. gregory

Bless, Father Gregory,

Yes, I once got "burned" as well for criticizing a bishop or two . . .

Alex

Take our bishops.......Please!

I've never attended a liturgy of the PNCC, though every major city in Poland has one of their churches. I've never met a Polish member & I think in many ways, it's an "American" church, formed by the American experience.

I am told that the PNCC in Poland has female priests, but cannot confirm that.

Stojgniev

Dear Stoyjniev,

In Poland, it is called the "Polish Catholic Church."

Here in Toronto, I understand that an entire PNCC parish came into communion with Rome (somewhere in Mississauga) and they continue to have married priests.

Alex

Yes the Polish Catholic Church was once a missionary diocese of the PNCC but they are independent now and the two don't have anything to do with one another anymore as the PCC has followed the lead of the other Utrecht Union Churhces.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Been lurking since 1997. This is my first post, if memory serves.

I stopped a few years ago at the PNC cathedral in Manchester, New Hampshire and read literature that declared that hell was NOT eternal. No one was available to clarify this for me. Anyone know their interpretation of this?

Bob

Some disgruntled Latin parishes have gone over to the PNCC as well. A few years ago a parish was closed in the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese so the parishioners formed a new parish in the PNCC. I would expect the parish in St. Louis thta does want to end their trustee government to do likewise.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

I understand that disgruntled Latin parishes is what the PNCC is all about from its inception!

Alex

In addition, Holy Communion is administered in the PNCC my means of Intinction. Private confession is only required of those under the age of 16 (adults make a general confession during every Mass)and they accept birth control. I think someone may have already mentioned that they celebrate Mass in the vernacular.

The PNCC was founded in Scranton, Pennsylvania under the leadership of Bishop Franciszek Hodur (Hodur I believe is a Ukrainian surname) in 1897. The principal cause of their leaving the Roman Catholic Church was their belief that congregations should own churches and that parishoners should decide who their priests would be. To this day, many PNCC's have written on their cornerstones "Property Of The Polish People". Despite the name, the PNCC also originally included Lithuanian and Slovak congregations.

Not sure about the size of the PNCC today, but in the Chicago area they've gone from 9 congregations to 5 within the last 50 years. Their parishes also tend to be small in relation to Polish RC Churches.

I stand corrected No doubt, politics had a lot to play in that period. Most history of that period plays like a bad performance, usually to the interest of many prominent families and city-states of the period. Most of what he called out to the Church to do, took centuries before it was properly addressed. I could not tell you much of his writings, for I have to confess I haven't time to read them. I am a historian (in fact I teach it). What the good friar intended to do was have the church shed some of its worldly glory and focus on its heavenly glory instead. Unfortunately that message was not popular with the powers to be, including the pope. But then that pope had switched alliances several times in that period, and in the end lost all.

My major point is, right at the moment the problem with any reunion is their married episcopate, acceptance of Vatican I & II, and conformance to the Canons of the Catholic Church.

Bishop Hudar faced what many in that period of time did as far as Eastern Rite Catholics, prejudice towards the Poles, their language and culture. The only issue that was different with the problems with the Eastern Rite Catholics and how they dealt with their situation (some coming to the Orthodox Church, some seeking redress from Rome) is the what became the PNC was Latin Rite, and thus used the same liturgy as the Irish and Italians. The only difference would have been the language used in the sermon and the language the priest ministered to his flock in. From even their own (PNC) publications, the dispute ultimately came down to parish control and the authority of the hierarch.

Sorry if I sounded a little sour in my earlier post, but was having a bad night.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

The inscription on many PNCC's is
Wlasnosc Ludu Polskiego. Forgot to mention I'm also an admirer of Savonarola.

My husband's cousin is no longer a PNC priest. I believe one of the reasons is the talk over ordination of women. He is teaching at a college in New York.

Bob,

Yes their founder taught that hell will eventually be disposed of and the all will be saved, i.e Origen. I don't think the PNCC, in its articles of faith, officially adheres to this but some priest may promote it because I have found refernce to this on some PNCC websites, but I have never seen it at my local PNCC parishes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bless, Father Anthony!

I was not (Heaven forbid!) criticizing you at all for what you said!

It is interesting that what led to the formation of the PNCC is also what led to the Uniate immigrants to North America to become Orthodox i.e. St Alexis Toth.

90% of Ukrainian Catholic immigrants to Canada left the UGCC to form an Orthodox church that has only recently been admitted to canonical Orthodoxy.

They left because they felt the RC's did not respect their religious, ecclesial and cultural identity.

Their church still has a very strong nationalistic character - something that has, today, decimated its ranks as there are only about 10,000 members left.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Yes, I believe the PNCC still teaches that Baptism and Confirmation constitute ONE sacrament and the seventh Sacrament is the Bible.

I've spoken with our local PNCC bishop on occasion and he has been very involved with talks with Rome.

He tells me that today there is no difference between the PNCC and Rome that would continue to block full unity (apart from hardened habits of the people).

Alex

Alex,

Yes that oddity still exists, I think it is the proclamation of the Word in a liturgical setting that is considered a sacrament and not the Bible itself. Given the fact that many Orthodox/Eastern Catholic theologians hold that the enumeration of seven and only seven sacraments is a medieval Latin construct I don't see it as a big problem.

Married bishops are probably the biggest obstacle. Didn't the UGCC have a married bishop in the days of the catacomb Church then when the UGCC emerged he was required to function only as a priest?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

I don't know about the UGCC bishop (which doesn't mean that didn't happen).

The UAOC of 1921 did indeed allow for married bishops according to the "Kyivan Canons."

(Patriarch Josef actually recognized their orders as canonical, on a case-by-case basis - one such married bishop showed up at my old parish and our pastor allowed him to celebrate the Divine Liturgy as he had a letter from Patriarch Josef approving his orders. He was also from the same area of Ukraine as a lot of our parishioners - who stayed for the Liturgy and then came to him to kiss and hug him - much to our pastor's chagrin!)

Couldn't the married PNCC bishops keep their wives as "sisters?" Didn't the ancient canon say that the bishop should be a man of "one wife?"

I hope you would concur that one is more than sufficient for one man during his lifetime . . .

Happy Women's Day!

Alex

Father Deacon Lance,

Thank you.

Bob

I have a personal interest in this thread since a good portion of my family belongs to the Polish National Catholic Church. Unfortunately, I just don�t have too much time available this week. But I would like to add a bit to the discussion.

-There is an ongoing dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC). The Catholic Co-chairman is the Bishop of the RC Diocese of Scranton. The PNCC co-chairman seems to rotate among their bishops.

-A lot of the issues have been addressed. I am not positive, but I believe that they are back to seven Sacraments and have categorized the one about �hearing the word of God� as a sacramental. The documents were online at one time but are not available on either the PNCC or the RC Scranton Diocese websites.

-The PNCC Mass is almost identical to the current RC Mass.

-There is a limited sacramental sharing. The current Roman Catholic statement regarding the Eucharist states �Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and he Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these churches (Canon 844-3).� In practice, Eucharistic sharing is common. Members of the PNCC � like the Orthodox and Assyrians � are not formally received into the Catholic Church should they wish to join it. They are merely registered as parishioners and welcomed.

-The PNCC is not currently in communion with any Old Catholic group (because some of the Old Catholics have either ordained women or are in communion with Churches that ordain women, etc.).

If you do a search for �PNCC� at usccb.org you can glean some information from the news articles. Click here. [usccb.org]

Dear Administrator,

When I attended the Antiochian Orthodox conference here in Toronto some years back, the Western Rite meetings at that conference raised their relations with the PNCC.

It appears that the PNCC has been in talks with the Antiochians and even got to the point of saying that "if we unite, we keep our name as it is" (as with the "Anglican Catholic Church").

I remember when a traditionalist RC tried to "mean-mouth" the PNCC to me and said, "Don't you know that they honour Jan Hus and Savonarola?"

I looked at him and said, "So we're supposed to downplay them because they're so much more advanced than we are?"

For the PNCC, there is nothing better than being in communion with a Polish Pope, it would seem!

Don't you agree?

Alex

Dear Dr. Alex:
You wrote: "The Dominican Order continues to privately honour Savonarola to this day (there is a Dominican whose Cause has been introduced who took the name "Jerome" for Savonarola and venerated him throughout his life).
When I read this I wondered if you were referring to Blessed Pier Giorgio who took the name "Jerome" as his profession name in the Dominican Third Order?
Silouan, monk

Bless, Father Silouan,

No need for "Dr. Alex", dear Father! I only use that title when I go to make restaurant reservations!

And you are absolutely correct!

Alex

Anglican Catholic Church?

Hus and Savonarola...*wry grin* hmm. I can see what they were after but I can likewise see what Luther was after as well. I have always prefered the reform that starts with the self rather than denoucncing others--too bad I'm not so great at that. Throughout the history of Western Christianity no reform has ever been brought about by the means advocated by Hus, Savonarola and company. War and death yes, but not reform. For all the noise they made, they achieved nothing. Unlike St Dominic of Guzman, St Francis of Assisi, St Teresa of Avila, St Ignatius Loyola, St Philip Neri etc. They started with themselves and oh what grand things they achieved. I would not hold Hus and Savonarola up to be venerated. But I would use them as examples of what not to do in a time of spiritual decadence. History illustrates that the hierachy dont tend to react well to criticism of their kind.

Hus was a tragic figure for the Czechs, who today are one of or perhaps the very least religious nation of Slavs. I was raised around & still know many Czechs whose vision of religion & history all centers around Hus, who has the status for them of some kind of a prophet, or like Luther for many Lutherans.

Sadly, the Czech national leaders of the 19th century declared the Hussite period was the brighest moment of their nation's history, though it brought destruction, civil war, invasion. The Hussite interpretation of Czech history still dominates today & so much of the Czech national symbolism revolves around Hus.

Some Czech Catholics support the idea of "rehabilitating" Hus. He was a tragic figure, obviously with deep, deep religious convictions. Yet if he knew what his actions would mean for the future generations in his country, I suspect he might have acted differently.

Stojgniev

Dear Friends,

Hus is also honoured as a Pan-Slavic symbol - by Ukrainians and the Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko whose day today is.

As he wrote:

"Accept my 'duma-lepta'
about the Holy Czech
The Great Martyr
The Glorious Hus!

And I will pray that all Slavs
become as heretical
as the great heretic of Constance!"

The Hussite wars were hardly Hus's fault - in fact, they probably would have occurred even if Hus had not been around.

Jan Zizka, the great Czech military commander, repelled, as we know, the papal armies five times.

Ukrainian Orthodox leaders, such as St Theodore, Prince of Ostrih, employed Hussite tactics in their battles with Roman Catholic armies as well.

Orthodox writers in the 19th century sometimes said that Hus was an herald of the old Cyrillo-Methodian tradition of Bohemia, the Czechs were searching for both a religious and a national identity that was being oppressed by the Roman Catholic church of their day and the German hegemony (which probably accounts for the fact that German Catholics are MOST desirous for a rehabilitation of Hus).

Rome has itself to blame for the Czech situation, just as it has only itself to blame for losing China in the wake of the Chinese Rites controversy.

Hus wrote about the various immoralities of the day - he was in favour of a married priesthood and all other elements to be found in the Eastern Church.

The Roman Catholic Church has always regarded both Hus and Jerome of Prague as holy individuals - and now the Pope himself has given the green light to Hus's rehabilitation and has apologised for Hus's death at the hands of Catholics (Hus, in fact, predicted that the Church would withdraw its excommunication against him one day - this he said before his death - he died forgiving his enemies, invoking the Name of Jesus and reciting the Creed).

Jerome of Prague left Bohemia and travelled to Russia where he became an Orthodox Christian - his Orthodox baptismal certificate was found in Latvia and the Czech Orthodox Church is in possession of it. The Czech Orthodox Church may canonize Jerome of Prague (one of their bishops told me some have said he should be).

St Nikolai Velimirovich, the Serbian hagiographer, wrote a book on Hus entitled, "Saint John Hus." The Czech Orthodox Church is publishing it in Czech next year.

As St Clement Hofbauer, C.Ss.R. once wrote, "The Germans became Protestants, because they wanted to live as Christians." (Interpret that as you will).

But Hus and Jerome were no Protestants, and neither was Joan of Arc who was called a "Protestant" by those who condemned her.

As for Savonarola, he opposed a pope, Alexander VI, who was unworthy of the Throne of Peter.

The Dominican Order has always honoured him, and so have many others, including Saints that the RC Church has canonized.

It was St Catherine of Siena who not only prayed much, but also travelled to argue with the other "popes" of her day who was instrumental in uniting the divided Western Church.

Sometimes even saints cannot afford to remain in silent prayer.

Sometimes they must take a public stand as God's instruments.

Alex

Sadly the once devoutly Catholic land of Bohemia was also responsible for the creation of numerous anti-Christian Freethinker Societies in North America. Recently on a visit to Chicago's Bohemian National Cemetery I was astounded to see how Masonic symbols clearly outnumered Christian symbols in a cemetery founded because a teenage girl was refused burial in consecrated ground. Amazing too is the large number of Czechs in Chicago who preferred to have their final send off from this world from the lodge rather than the House of God.

Dear Lawrence,

You are more than correct!

The Czechs can be inimical, in general, to RCism - something I maintain is mainly the fault of Rome - and Germany.

Rome's historical political machinations have gotten it in trouble - not only with the UGCC and Moscow Patriarchate situations.

Let's also remember that the Polish Kings often went into voluntary schism from Rome when they didn't agree with Rome's policies.

The years that the Polish Church was in actual schism from Rome since its Baptism as a Christian nation number almost . . . 200 years.


Alex

Understanding your point I think St Catherine of Siena's case is slightly different. She did what she needed to do and though she showed no fear in doing it she did not incite the avenging angel to come from France to clean up Italy. Indeed, she spent lots of time trying to stop wars rather than start them. Louis XIII wasnt much better than Alexander VI anyway...

Yes, sometimes saints cant always pray. But Catherine would have done nothing but pray had Jesus not expressly told her to do otherwise. Once again her internal reform was completele long before her mission in the world began.

Dear Myles,

O.K., I'm not here to argue, we have different perspectives on things - as it should be!

Would you please go to the prayer thread and tell me what you think about my akathist to Andrew Sheptytsky?

It would mean a great deal to me!

(And I WON'T be doing an akathist to Savonarola, O.K.? )

Alex

Okie dokie

Dear Friends,

One more interesting (I think) fact relating to Savonarola.

One of his disciples, a Dominican, left Italy after witnessing Savonarola's brutal execution and rejection.

He travelled to Russia and became an Orthodox monk there.

Here are some icons of St Maximos the Greek:

http://www.days.ru/Images/ii1424&930.htm

He roundly condemned the immorality of the Catholic upper classes and the West in general, in his writings.

He suffered much on account of his defence of the Old Rite.

This monk was canonized an Orthodox saint in 1988 as "St Maximos the Greek."

He had always been venerated a saint by the Russian Old Believers.

Maximos had a lot to do with the introduction of Savonarola's sermons into Russian spiritual literature.

Alex

Savonarola was a great man who never attempted to start a new church but only to clean up the old one. I'd recommend that anyone with doubts about the man's Holiness read Pierre Van Paassen's 'Crown Of Fire'.

Myles,

Savonarola was known for great personal holiness, reforming the Dominicans of San Marco, and improving the moral life of the Florentines. I don't think he can be considered a failure. His criticism was soley against the decadent and immoral life he found in society and regrettably in the papal court. I'll take Savonarola over Pope Alexander VI anyday.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Look below, misfire

After what God did for me yesterday I have lost the heart to argue, so if you feel Savonarola was a true reformer then I wont argue. But I will take my cues from others:

An extract from a biography of St Francis of Assisi.

Dear Myles,

St Francis, as a number of Franciscans have told me over the years, was also very much against the hierarchical power structures of the RC Church of his day - so much so that he refused to be ordained a priest and didn't want his followers to be either.

J.P. Olivi and others who followed in St Francis' footsteps later were much villified by the RC church authorities and there were cases of holy Franciscans who signed petitions against papal excesses of their day. One such locally honoured Beatus (I forget his name, but have a picture of his statue at home) signed such a petition and this will prevent his ever being canonized, according to some hagiographers.

The Franciscan tradition is hardly the docile one we would make it out to be.

Alex

Then perhaps I can be the docile one then

Dear Myles,

Happy Birthday!

Yes, you can leave the ecclesial activism stuff to the likes of us!

God bless,

Alex

Back to the Czechs - I've spent a great deal of time in the Czech Republic, where I have some distant relatives. The Czech attitude towards religion - ranging from indifference to outright hostility - can be very depressing. Contempt for religion is strongest in Bohemia & them somewhat milder in Moravia & Czech Silesia (it's funny, as you travel eastward towards Slovakia, religiousity increases. Then in Ukraine, it increases in the opposite direction - intensifying from east to west).

The Hussites made various overtures towards Orthodoxy, chiefly in accord with the principle that "your enemy is my friend". As far as I know, the Hussite ambassadors were all rejected by Orthodox Russians as heretics.

Zizka is one of the most infamous Hussites. He & his troops took great pleasure in burning, robbing & raping, as even many Czechs will admit to you.

One of the misfortunes experienced by the Czech Hussites is the same problem encountered historically in Protestantism (& among Russian schismatics) - they kept splintering into sects that got further & further away from Hus' teachings. A century after Hus' execution you had all variety of dissidents. In Prague I had a very intelligent professor, an authority on Czech religious history, who was descended from a group of dissidents in southern Bohemia. Of course, the "reform" kept snowballing, so that by the 19th century you had Free Thought (still very influential among Czechs) & agnosticism.

One final criticism of Hussitism - it was embraced by the communists (who proclaimed the dissident Taborites the "first true communists"). In postwar Czechoslovakia the communist government constantly made use of Hussite symbols. In few other communist countries were the Roman and Greek Catholics so persecuted as in Czechoslovakia & much of that persecution was fueled by the Hussite rhetoric of the government.

Stojgniev

Dear Stoygniev,

That the communists would have made use of Hussitic symbolism and teachings to further their cause - that is no surprise.

They also made use of the Ukrainian Taras Shevchenko, portraying him as a harbinger of communism etc.

The Reds simply used popular heroes and culture to surround their propaganda with.

Zizka is a hero to the Czechs - what his soldiers did is what all soldiers did and do, including the papal armies sent into Bohemia by Rome, including imperial Poland, imperial Russia etc.

So your criticism of Hussitism, and Hussitism can be criticized, as can any movement, is also a criticism of Rome and others.

In fact, Orthodoxy has looked with a sympathetic eye to the teachings of Hus and the Calixtine (Catholic) reform movement (as opposed to the Protestant Taborite and others).

In the 19th century, a group of Old Catholics approached the Orthodox Church of Russia and asked whether Jan Hus could be honoured by them (should they unite with Orthodoxy) as a saint.

An edition of the Czech Orthodox Calendar published some years back carried this entire discussion.

The Serbian Saint Nikolai Velimirovich wrote the book: "Saint John Hus" and this will be published by the Czech Orthodox Church next year - according to its website.

In fact, because the Orthodox Church tended to view Hus as a hearkening back to the Cyrillo-Methodian tradition of Bohemia (married priesthood, liturgy in the language of the people, Communion under both Kinds), this opened the door to conversion to Orthodoxy of many Hussites.

I once came across a Czech Orthodox priest who said, to my great surprise, that he wished his Church would allow for the veneration of Hus and Jerome of Prague as this would greatly aid in bringing into Orthodoxy of more Protestant Hussites (most of his parish were converts from Hussite Protestantism).

I once corresponded with the Orthodox Bishop of Brno who told me that the Orthodox prayerbook they have contains a hymn in honour of Hus (I think it is more of a national, than religious, hymn) and that it is possible that Jerome of Prague could become an Orthodox saint, as they now have his Orthodox baptismal certificate.

The Calixtine Hussites were Catholic in every which way but the Pope. Later, they actually did reunite with Rome and were organized into a kind of "rite" or "usage" that allowed Communion under both Kinds.

Alex

Dear Alex,

You've made a good argument for why some Christians might honor Hus.

It's true that Orthodoxy was something of a fad in 19th century Bohemia.

But in the end for me, I see only the many negatives associated with Hus & his followers. Hus is a political figure & if he inspires most people today, it is because of his historical role. The role of a holy man should be something quite different. I wonder how many Czechs actually have been led to salvation through Hus?

I could make the same criticism of some other recently canonized saints, who inspire the faithful more towards national pride or ethnic consciousness than towards Christian humility.

Stojgniev

Dear Stoygniev,

Books and articles have been written on the points you raise - the discussion is without limits, as you well know!

The Czech Orthodox Church is certainly no fad today and, as a Greek-Catholic, I see no reason to believe otherwise.

That Hus is a national figure shows precisely how great BOTH religious and political passions can be.

I had a Czech (socialist) professor who escaped the Dubcek era - he loved Hus but rejected Hus' religiosity.

Today, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Prague attends the ceremonies at the Hus memorial in Prague.

Hus' statue seems to have graced every second village in Bohemia and the Jesuits seemed intent on stamping his cult out by pushing the cult of "St John Nepomuk" - whose veneration was reduced to local status by the RC Church in 1963, I believe.

Hus opposed bitterly the immorality of the clergy of his time, and he did this as Rector of the University of Prague. Should he have remained silent? He wrote treatises on spiritual retreats, stressing frequent prayer, purity of heart, freedom from sexual sins and obedience to God's Will in all things.

Rome's political machinations harmed the cause of the Church in Bohemia and on this we will disagree.

If the Czechs had an Orthodox Church to go to, I think they all would have at that time.

Western Ukraine was in a similar situation. Ukrainian Greek-Catholics at least had their own Eastern Church to support them in their struggle with Polish Catholic hegemony at that time (Poland has been VERY nice to Ukraine in its recent struggles to become truly free and democratic bygones are bygones etc. ).

I, for one, trust His Holiness the Pope whose former Archdiocese of Krakow had its own Hussite history, as you know.

The Pope has seen fit to approve the reexamination of that entire time period and has formally expressed his regret over the burning of Hus (and Hus was very Catholic, with a great devotion to the Mass and to the Assumption of the Mother of God).

Our Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky was likewise a very holy man - but he also defended his Church and people entrusted to him.

This earned him reproval from a number of circles who called him "political" and much more distasteful things - your University of Krakow, as I understand it, also published two books against Met. Andrei, in effect, calling him a traitor to Poland etc.

This kind of political nastiness has not prevented Ukrainian (Russian and other Greek) Catholics (and many Ukrainian Orthodox) from venerating Met. Andrei as a saint, even though the political issues keep him from the honours of the altar.

And this despite the fact that he participated in the consecration of the current Pope as bishop . . .

The other Polish bishop who participated in the consecration is now well on the way to becoming a saint.

Many of us don't think that is fair on Rome's part.

Rome really did write the book on political machinations and the horrendous policy of "Ostpolitik."

Hus' observation about the bad things that came from Rome that affected Christianity in Bohemia is something that many Ukrainians, and others, can certainly relate to.

Alex

Dear Alex,

Well, you raise enough issues for several weeks of discussion. Just a few remarks for the present:

Whatever does Metropolitan Sheptyckyj have to do with Hus? I am a tremendous admirer of Sheptickyj, though not of Hus. And we need to be extremely careful of applying broad ethnic stereotypes when talking about the Metropolitan. After all, he was raised in a polonized family that spoke Polish & identified with Polish culture. For many years he was villified by Ukrainians as a "Wallenrod," a secret agent of the Poles. He should be an example for all of us on how to subordinate ethnicity to spirituality. He's not a good example of illustrating ethnicity by religion.

By the way, it is not "my" Jagielloninan University in Krakow. As I said before, I was born in the U.S. (Krakow does happen to be my favorite city in the world, however).

I read quite a lot of favorable things about Hus that have been written by the Catholic clergy of Poland. But of course, Hus is also partly responsible for the desecration of the Black Madonna at Czestochowa, when the Hussites attacked & temporarily captured the Jasna Gora monastery. Just like many other armies of their day, the Hussite armies were terrorists & inflicted great damage, even in their own country. Especially in parts of Moravia that remained Catholic.

I have to disagree with you - Orthodoxy for the Czechs has been nothing more than a fad since the 19th century. It was for Czech intellectuals of the 19th century what the Hare Krishnas are to some of Europe's young folk today. And therein lies the great tragedy of Hus - he so poisoned the hearts of the Czechs of Bohemia towards religion that today the great majority are atheists/agnostics. Most of those who took up Orthodoxy in the 19th century did it for political & cultural reasons.

That is obvious with the great Czech political & cultural leaders of recent time. Masaryk was both a Hussite & an agnostic/atheist. Same for Havel. The sad state of affairs among the Czechs led them to VOTE IN THE COMMUNISTS BY A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION OF BOHEMIA (though not Moravia or Slovakia). I'm aware of no other communist regime elected by a majority population.

You are correct about Jan of Nepomuk being promoted as a "Catholic Hus." Over the centuries that just turned the Czechs of Bohemia even more against religion.

Should Hus have remained silent? Well, he shouldn't have paid so much attention to the ideas of Wycliff. Yes, Hus was orthodox in certain respects - e.g. respect for the Mother of God. But he also picked up some of Wycliff's errors. As someone who knows the Czechs quite well (I've published some things on the Czech & other Slav stereoypes), I can tell you that Hus's fault - his infatuation with the fashionable & especially with the fashionable things from the West - is still seen among the Czechs. The Czechs have lost so many Slavic traditions because they've always been so infatuated with news styles & fads. They have no respect for tradition.

I've never met a Czech who could say that he developed a deeper religious faith because of Hus. I have met many Czechs who mention Hus when expressing all kinds of resentments & intolerance. Again, when we look at all the repercussions caused by Hus over the centuries, we have to ask is Hus and his teachings came from God.

In the interest of healing the wounds of history & reconciling some of the Czechs to Christianity, perhaps the Church should rehabilitate Hus. The less one thinks today about the tragedies of Hussitism, the better.

Stojgniev

Stojgniev

Dear Stoyjniev,

We'll agree to disagree on certain points, but I think you really are mixing up "beans with kapusta" when you discuss Hus and Hussitism.

There were several versions of Hussitism, including the radical (Protestant, iconoclast) Taborite brand that had nothing to do with the Catholic vision of Hus at all.

If it did, the Church would not be interested in rehabilitating him and the matter would be closed.

Hus was not an iconoclast and the fact that certain members who called themselves after him were does NOT make Hus guilty of iconoclasm.

So, forgive me, but you do not make the necessary distinction between the two and that is unfortunate.

As for Met. Andrew, I merely bring him up to show how someone can be villified etc. He was indeed met with suspicion by the Ukrainians at first.

He struggled to find his Ukrainian roots (which were intermingled with Polish ones) just as I have both Ukrainian and Polish roots (and am proud of both).

There is no reason, however, for him to continue to suffer villification today, as I'm sure you will agree.

The secularization of the Czechs is not simply due to the years of war with the Vatican.

They are the most Westerly Slavs and picked up on many Western secular and agnostic currents of thought over the years, hook, line and sinker.

I have corresponded with Czech Orthodox clergy and hierarchs and categorically disagree with your estimation of Czech Orthodoxy.

It is true that Hus and Jerome of Prague were exposed to the idea of Wycliffe. But Roman Catholic historians today show that Hus gave Wycliffe's ideas a "Catholic inflection" and avoided the Protestantism inherent in Wycliffe.

Jerome of Prague's studies under Wycliffe certainly did not prevent him from being open to Orthodoxy and from embracing Orthodoxy in Latvia which he did before returning to certain death at the stake in Prague (again, his Orthodox baptismal certificate has been discovered).

Hus opposed German hegemony over the Slavs which is why the Pan-Slavic movement of the 19th century looked upon him favourably (including our Taras Shevchenko). He also opposed the extraction of Czech resources by the Vatican to fund the more secular pursuits of the Church of Rome at that time.

At no time did Hus take up arms against anyone. It was the violent act of his execution at Constance that provoked later military actions by those who probably would have done so regardless.

Although the Taborite Hussites chose as their symbol the chalice to signify Communion in both Kinds, in fact, Hus NEVER made this an absolute issue.

No one is imposing the "cult of Hus" on anyone here. Hus' rehabilitation will not necessarily mean a declaration of cult by the RC Church.

He was a person whose influence extended widely, even on the Vatican II Council, as Matthew Spinka has said, where a number of his propositions were accepted by the Council documents.

But that is another story.

Alex

Alex,

Yes, we'll have to agree then on our disagreement about Hus. Actually, I'm much more interested in Metropolitan Sheptyckyj


Alex wrote:
There is no reason, however, for him to continue to suffer villification today, as I'm sure you will agree.



Sorry, but I missed something. Who is villifying Sheptyckyj?

You are right about Hus & the Germans. As rector of Prague university, he fought for & gained rights for the Czech students, then many German students promptly left Prague. Hus was always consious of the political ramifications of his teaching & preaching.

Little wonder that the Slavs influenced by Romanticism & emerging Slav nationalism, e.g. Shevchenko, praised Hus. But one hardly expects exact historical detail or analysis from Romanticists & 19th century national awakeners. Just because Shevchenko praised him, it doesn't mean that I should too.

If someone finds spiritual inspiration in Hus, good for them, so be it! I myself will focus on other historical figures that inspire me in some positive manner (like Metropolitan Sheptyckyj).

Stojgniev

Dear Stoyjniev,

If you like Met. Andrew, then let's forget about Hus, shall we?

Not that I'm tooting my own horn, but what do you think about my Akathist to him on the Prayer Thread?

You mean you haven't read it yet?

Niech Bedzie Pochwalony Jezus Christus!

Alex

Alex tells us that Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytysky) "participated in the consecration of the current Pope as bishop . . ."

Please refresh my memory - when was Karol Woytyla (now Pope John Paul II) born? And when was he consecrated to the episcopate? And did Metropolitan Andrew not fall asleep in the Lord in 1944?

Or perhaps Alex believes that Metropolitan Andrew was spiritually present - that seems likely, but I cannot think of any way to verify it until (please God) the day arrives when I will be able to ask the Metropolitan.

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

There is no need to speak about me as if I'm not here.

Perhaps I expressed myself wrongly, but the Pope himself discussed his relationship to Met. Andrei when he was in Ukraine. Perhaps it had to do with episcopal lines or all that other stuff that the clerical-minded busy themselves with.

Sorry if I misrepresented the Pope's words - I've really no desire to know more about it.

You would better spend your time reading an Akathist to Met. Andrei . . .

You . . . you . . . great Unknown, you!

A holy Great Fast to you.

Alex

Yes, it has to do with episcopal lineage.

Archbishop Andreas Alexander Szeptyckyj (b. 1865 - d. 1944) is within the apostolic succession episcopal lineage of Pope John Paul II, because he was the principal co-consecrator of Bl. Jozef Bilczewski, who was the principal consecrator of Boleslaw Twardowski, who was the principal consecrator of Eugeniusz Baziak, who was the principal consecrator of Karol Jozef Wojtyla (Pope John Paul II).

Here is the Episcopal lineage of the Pope beginning with Bl. Jozef Bilczewski who was consecrated by Andreas Alexander Szeptyckyj as one of the principal co-consecrators:

Archbishop Bl. Jozef Bilczewski (b. 1860 - d. 1923)
Consecrated bishop on 20 January 1901 by:
Jan Maurycy Pawel Cardinal Puzyna de Kosielsko (principal consecrator)
Archbishop Andreas Alexander Szeptyckyj (principal co-consecrator)
Bishop St. Jozef Sebastian Pelczar (principal co-consecrator)

Archbishop Boleslaw Twardowski (b. 1864 - d. 1944)
Consecrated bishop on 12 January 1919 by:
Archbishop Bl. Jozef Bilczewski (principal consecrator)
Bishop Leo Walega (principal co-consecrator)
Bishop Karol Josef Fischer (principal co-consecrator)

Archbishop Eugeniusz Baziak (b. 1890 - d. 1962)
Consecrated bishop on 5 November 1933 by:
Archbishop Boleslaw Twardowski (principal consecrator)
Bishop Francis Lisowski (principal co-consecrator)
Bishop Edward Komar (principal co-consecrator)

Pope John Paul II (Karol Jozef Wojtyla) (b. 1920 - )
Consecrated bishop on 28 September 1958 by:
Archbishop Eugeniusz Baziak (principal consecrator)
Boleslaw Cardinal Kominek (principal co-consecrator)
Bishop Franciszek Jop (principal co-consecrator)

Dear Apotheoun,

Please accept my spiritual bow!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Khrystos Voskresne! Now, now - dry your tears (or weep for my sins, if you would be so kind). Surely the realization that even the Unknown admire and appreciate you comes as some consolation.

Incognitus