www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Polish National Catholic Church ? / Organization of E Rite churches

Does anyone care to comment on the Polish National Catholic Church ???

I see on the Byzcath web site they are listed as a church of Irregular Status. I visited the thier website and see that they are based in Scranton.

Just curious how they are related to the Catholic Church, becuase they have a lot of Parishes here.

Also I want to comment on the organization of the Catholic and Eastern Rite Churches.

I finally understand that the Ukranian Catholics are in my area are in the Eparchy of Philly,

The Byzantine Catholics are under Eparchy of Passaic.

(The Diocese of Scranton seems to by oblivious to anything other that thier Latin Rite Churches)

I see that the Russian Orthodox churches are in their own Eparchy.

Any comments ???

During the past few months over this long winter I have researched this on the Internet and visited some Eastern Rite Churches.

To my knowledge, the Polish National Catholic Church was formed in the late 1800's in Scranton PA. They were declared schismatic by Rome immediately after their formation. The crux of their formation was to minister to their faithful in Polish. After they where formed, the entered onto the Old Catholic communion of Utrecht (Netherlands) thus renouncing the first Vatican Council. They have made liturgical changes to the sacraments and liturgy, and have incorporated veneration as saint such as the declared Catholic heretic Savranola. The liturgics resemble mainly a western charcter of the old mass. They have a married episcopate, and clergy, and the church has been very divisive over the ordination of women into major orders. This has put them into odds with the Old Catholic communion.

In my own opinion they are "irregular" by being catholic in name only. They do not submit to the present teachings of wither the Church of Rome or any Orthodox Church. You can form whatever opinion you like from this. Many of the causes of their seperation from Rome were resolved with Vatican II, but in their short history have ventured far enough away to make any reunion an extremely difficult task.

I hope this helps.

In Christ,
Father Anthony+

Their website proclaims them to be a Christain Denomination. Supposedly they have a large building on Pittston Ave in Scranton.

I can not recall ever passing it when going up Pittston Ave.

Just another example the enthnic/religous groups that settled in Northeastern PA. All the people came over to work in the mines and they settled in enclaves of thier own kind and religion.

One North Main Street in Wilkes-Barre : St Mary's - Byzantine Catholic (Russian ?), St. Stanaslaus Kosta - Polish Roman Catholic, St Mathew - Slovak Lutheran, Sacred Heart - Slovak Roman Catholic, Holy Resurection - Russian Orthodox, St Johns (Now merged w/ Sacred Heart) Irish Roman Catholic, down the cross steet Ss. Peter and Pauls, Ukranian Catholic. (There is also a Methodist and a Christan Fundemtalist denomination on N. Main)

Greetings,
The PNC is an Old Catholic group, the largest in the United States.

It seems that Slavs of all types had trouble with the predominately Irish episcopate of the Roman Catholic church in the late 19th century. The Poles had very similar complaints as the Greek rite Catholics, and at the same time period. Many Greek Catholics returned to Orthodoxy via the Russian Metropolia (OCA) and the Poles essentially returned to pre-Vatican I Catholicism by way of the Old Catholics. They translated the Tridentine liturgy into the vernacular (Polish) soon afterward.

The real issues the Poles had to grapple with were very parochial concerns, the bishops seem not to have taken their issues seriously. The Roman Catholic church addressed many of their complaints (lack of Polish priests and lack of Polish bishops) after the schism was under way, sort of closing the barn door after the horses ran out. Since this occcured midway through the era of mass migration from the Austro-Hungarian empire the Roman Catholic hierarchy did everything it could the discourage new immigrants from joining the PNC.

I don't think that they attract many modern immigrants from Poland. Today most of the PNC that I have encountered around Chicago are basically all-American types, and quite a lot of them have non-Polish names. They once had a strong relationship with the Protestant Episcopal church in the USA, many PNC attend Episcopal churches when they move to an area that has no PNC parishes.

The PNC have also engaged in talks with the RC. Two areas may be difficulties in the discussions for reunion: they are keen to retain title to their own parish property and as Father Anthony has indicated their bishops may be married, just like the Episcopalians.

They have a very nice liturgy (from a layperson's perspective) which they now offer in English and Spanish in some places. I believe (not certain) that PNC are allowed to take communion in RC churches.

In Christ,
Michael

Just goes to show us how many religious groups are out there.

There is still a Church in Pittston that does the old Latin Tridentine Mass. I think not under the Pope - I think they are associated with that Bishop Leferbe or whatever he was called - the group shuns the new mass and go back to pre-Vatican II traditions.

Concerning the other part of the question: the Eastern Catholics.

Ideally there should be only one bishop per city, and in keeping with that canon the early Greek Catholics were expected to be supervised by the local Ordinary, who would be Roman Catholic since the RC church was already established in North America. For example, today Russian Catholics have no hierarchy in the USA and they would be under the local Ordinary who is technically responsible for their care.

Unfortunately things did not go too well for the Greek Catholics in the 19th century, in some instances they were refused permission to build parish churches of their own. The bishops tended to want the Greek Catholics to conform to Roman Catholicism and join an RC parish. Some Greek Catholic parishes were probably built without permission of the bishop, a clear act of disobediance from the bishop's point of view.

The bishops also did not like the married clergy, and opposed the presence of married clergy in their dioceses. The bishops also didn't have title to the property in those days, this was irksome.

After grief and schism Rome stepped in to provide an ordaining bishop for the Greek Catholics in the USA. It was a case of too little and too late, this bishop did not have independant authority over the Greek Catholic parishes, but needed cooperation from the local Ordinaries.

Eventually separate Eparchies were erected for the Ukrainians and Rusyns. I believe that Rome could justify this move because the local Ordinaries largely mishandled the Greek Catholics from the beginning, but ideally these separate overlapping Eparchies should not even be necessary, they are a concession.

The situation today is certainly an improvement over the situation 100 years ago. The Eastern churches are being encouraged to return to their own traditions and the Eparchs are capable of running their own affairs with very little outside influence (except for Rome, of course!)

Michael

St. Mary
695 North Main Street
Wilkes Barre, PA 18705

St. Mary is a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church. I saw you wondered what type of Byzantine Church it was.

That is correct. St Mary's is a Ruthenian Byzantine church. I was wondering about the Nationality of the parish.

I went to a liturgy there once and most of it was not in English. I wonder if it was Russian or High Slavonic. I could not tell.

Getting back to the subject of the Polish National Catholic Church, there are many Polish Roman Catholic Parishes.

So it seems some of the immigrants went one way, while many more stayed with the R.C. Church.

Yes, the Polish National Church was started in the late 1800's. A Roman Catholic priest was ordained by an Old Catholic Bishop. His name was Huder. They have a parish in Philadelphia too. (St. Valentine's). The RC diocese of Scranton did not want to send a Polish speaking priest to them so they broke away. Yes, I understand that they are in talks with the RC Church as well.

My husbands grandparents were in the founders of All Saints PNC in Carnegie, PA. His grandmother loved JPII and they (members of the Church) took several trips to Rome for special occasssions. Deacon Stan was Baptised there and when we got serious about seeking a Church home as a young married couple over in Steubenville, Ohio the Lord took us to ST. Josephs Ruthenain Byzantine in Toronto, Oh. He longed to have the same 'small t' traditions as his grandmother did. His memroies were so fond of Pascha in her home. They are truly very different Churches, but they have a lot in common because of the ethenicity.

Pani Rose

I think the PNC is in communion with the OCA (if not other Orthodox Churches), aren't they?

I've heard they lost Apostolic succession by promoting a priest to bishop without having him consecrated (Hudar?). I've also heard they let some guys get married after ordination. Let me add that I'm from the lower coal region of Pennsylvania (Scranton's the upper coal region, WAY North of the Mountain, as we say), and there's some PNC churches. We never got along with them. Some of this might be myth.

Also, don't forget there's a good deal of Ruthenians who went into communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch about 70 years ago, who now constitute the American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese, and the Bishop lives in Johnstown, PA and they've got numbers in PA. I've got a lot of ACROD friends, and they seem to be putting out vocations like mad -- at least, they've got a lot of subdeacons, anyway. They're also starting a monastery at their seminary in Johnstown I hear.

The Polish National Catholic Church has a unique canon on the marital status of the priests: one is forbidden to marry until a year or so after ordination. The reason for this is probably the desire that a newly-ordained priest should serve some time as an assistant, so as to learn the practicalities of pastoral life.
Yes - the Polish National Catholic Church attracted about 10% of American Poles (although its credit union attracted over 25%). Exploring the reasons for the original break would provide some worth-while reflections on the US Catholic hierarchy of the time and the difficulties experienced when that hierarchy was faced with new and unfamiliar arrivals.

Incognitus

The PNC is not in communion with the OCA or any other Orthodox Church. I believe that at least unofficially, their laity may be admitted to at least communion in the Roman Catholic Church. Officially, they are not in communion with either the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, though they might want to be.

As far as their first bishop, Hudar part of what you wrote is true, but I believe that his ascension to the episcopacy is in line with the standards of the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht.

In Christ,
Father Anthony+

Bless, Father Anthony,

Just a comment about your reference to Jerome Savonarola as an "heretic."

In fact, while he was excommunicated by Pope Alexander VI, this hasn't prevented the Dominican Order and the citizens of Florence from honouring him as a local saint ever since.

I think historians have shown that just before he was hanged (as we know, they put iron shoulder pads on him and hung him over a fire with two of his Dominican associates), the pope withdrew the excommunication and this was read in public.

As was the tradition of the time, the Dominicans began honouring him as the "Apostle of Florence" with medals, pictures and even Masses said in his honour as "Il Beato Girolamo Savonarola."

St Philip Neri and St Catherine of Genoa, both being from Florence, wore a medal of Bl. Jerome Savonarola and when this was found on the body of St Philip Neri, it was reported to the authorities of Rome as a possible deterrent to his canonization.

But the Pope of the day ordered a "praetermissus" or for this to be passed over.

Pope Julian allowed Savonarola's picture to be painted at the Vatican over a doorway - but without any inscription.

He wanted to canonize Savonarola but was told that the Medicis were too powerful and this could cause trouble in Italy.

When asked by a Cardinal how the RC Church could canonize someone it had condemned and burned, the Pope replied, "It is sin itself that pollutes - the confession of sin does not pollute!"

The Dominican Order continues to privately honour Savonarola to this day (there is a Dominican whose Cause has been introduced who took the name "Jerome" for Savonarola and venerated him throughout his life).

The Archbishop of Florence, has, some years back, again reintroduced the Cause of Savonarola at Rome, since his veneration is popular among the Catholics of Florence still (May 13th is the feast day observed there).

The Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky likewise privately venerated Savonarola and died with a book about him in his hands!

As you know, a number of Orthodox writers have positively commented on the life and writings of Savonarola over the years.

That the Polish National Catholic Church venerates Jerome Savonarola is no insurmountable issue for eventual reunion with the RC Church.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex Roman
Member
Society of Girolamo Savonarola