www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Polish National Catholic Church ? / Organization of E Rite churches

Bob,

Yes their founder taught that hell will eventually be disposed of and the all will be saved, i.e Origen. I don't think the PNCC, in its articles of faith, officially adheres to this but some priest may promote it because I have found refernce to this on some PNCC websites, but I have never seen it at my local PNCC parishes.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bless, Father Anthony!

I was not (Heaven forbid!) criticizing you at all for what you said!

It is interesting that what led to the formation of the PNCC is also what led to the Uniate immigrants to North America to become Orthodox i.e. St Alexis Toth.

90% of Ukrainian Catholic immigrants to Canada left the UGCC to form an Orthodox church that has only recently been admitted to canonical Orthodoxy.

They left because they felt the RC's did not respect their religious, ecclesial and cultural identity.

Their church still has a very strong nationalistic character - something that has, today, decimated its ranks as there are only about 10,000 members left.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Yes, I believe the PNCC still teaches that Baptism and Confirmation constitute ONE sacrament and the seventh Sacrament is the Bible.

I've spoken with our local PNCC bishop on occasion and he has been very involved with talks with Rome.

He tells me that today there is no difference between the PNCC and Rome that would continue to block full unity (apart from hardened habits of the people).

Alex

Alex,

Yes that oddity still exists, I think it is the proclamation of the Word in a liturgical setting that is considered a sacrament and not the Bible itself. Given the fact that many Orthodox/Eastern Catholic theologians hold that the enumeration of seven and only seven sacraments is a medieval Latin construct I don't see it as a big problem.

Married bishops are probably the biggest obstacle. Didn't the UGCC have a married bishop in the days of the catacomb Church then when the UGCC emerged he was required to function only as a priest?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

I don't know about the UGCC bishop (which doesn't mean that didn't happen).

The UAOC of 1921 did indeed allow for married bishops according to the "Kyivan Canons."

(Patriarch Josef actually recognized their orders as canonical, on a case-by-case basis - one such married bishop showed up at my old parish and our pastor allowed him to celebrate the Divine Liturgy as he had a letter from Patriarch Josef approving his orders. He was also from the same area of Ukraine as a lot of our parishioners - who stayed for the Liturgy and then came to him to kiss and hug him - much to our pastor's chagrin!)

Couldn't the married PNCC bishops keep their wives as "sisters?" Didn't the ancient canon say that the bishop should be a man of "one wife?"

I hope you would concur that one is more than sufficient for one man during his lifetime . . .

Happy Women's Day!

Alex

Father Deacon Lance,

Thank you.

Bob

I have a personal interest in this thread since a good portion of my family belongs to the Polish National Catholic Church. Unfortunately, I just don�t have too much time available this week. But I would like to add a bit to the discussion.

-There is an ongoing dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC). The Catholic Co-chairman is the Bishop of the RC Diocese of Scranton. The PNCC co-chairman seems to rotate among their bishops.

-A lot of the issues have been addressed. I am not positive, but I believe that they are back to seven Sacraments and have categorized the one about �hearing the word of God� as a sacramental. The documents were online at one time but are not available on either the PNCC or the RC Scranton Diocese websites.

-The PNCC Mass is almost identical to the current RC Mass.

-There is a limited sacramental sharing. The current Roman Catholic statement regarding the Eucharist states �Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and he Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of communion by Christians of these churches (Canon 844-3).� In practice, Eucharistic sharing is common. Members of the PNCC � like the Orthodox and Assyrians � are not formally received into the Catholic Church should they wish to join it. They are merely registered as parishioners and welcomed.

-The PNCC is not currently in communion with any Old Catholic group (because some of the Old Catholics have either ordained women or are in communion with Churches that ordain women, etc.).

If you do a search for �PNCC� at usccb.org you can glean some information from the news articles. Click here. [usccb.org]

Dear Administrator,

When I attended the Antiochian Orthodox conference here in Toronto some years back, the Western Rite meetings at that conference raised their relations with the PNCC.

It appears that the PNCC has been in talks with the Antiochians and even got to the point of saying that "if we unite, we keep our name as it is" (as with the "Anglican Catholic Church").

I remember when a traditionalist RC tried to "mean-mouth" the PNCC to me and said, "Don't you know that they honour Jan Hus and Savonarola?"

I looked at him and said, "So we're supposed to downplay them because they're so much more advanced than we are?"

For the PNCC, there is nothing better than being in communion with a Polish Pope, it would seem!

Don't you agree?

Alex

Dear Dr. Alex:
You wrote: "The Dominican Order continues to privately honour Savonarola to this day (there is a Dominican whose Cause has been introduced who took the name "Jerome" for Savonarola and venerated him throughout his life).
When I read this I wondered if you were referring to Blessed Pier Giorgio who took the name "Jerome" as his profession name in the Dominican Third Order?
Silouan, monk

Bless, Father Silouan,

No need for "Dr. Alex", dear Father! I only use that title when I go to make restaurant reservations!

And you are absolutely correct!

Alex

Anglican Catholic Church?

Hus and Savonarola...*wry grin* hmm. I can see what they were after but I can likewise see what Luther was after as well. I have always prefered the reform that starts with the self rather than denoucncing others--too bad I'm not so great at that. Throughout the history of Western Christianity no reform has ever been brought about by the means advocated by Hus, Savonarola and company. War and death yes, but not reform. For all the noise they made, they achieved nothing. Unlike St Dominic of Guzman, St Francis of Assisi, St Teresa of Avila, St Ignatius Loyola, St Philip Neri etc. They started with themselves and oh what grand things they achieved. I would not hold Hus and Savonarola up to be venerated. But I would use them as examples of what not to do in a time of spiritual decadence. History illustrates that the hierachy dont tend to react well to criticism of their kind.

Hus was a tragic figure for the Czechs, who today are one of or perhaps the very least religious nation of Slavs. I was raised around & still know many Czechs whose vision of religion & history all centers around Hus, who has the status for them of some kind of a prophet, or like Luther for many Lutherans.

Sadly, the Czech national leaders of the 19th century declared the Hussite period was the brighest moment of their nation's history, though it brought destruction, civil war, invasion. The Hussite interpretation of Czech history still dominates today & so much of the Czech national symbolism revolves around Hus.

Some Czech Catholics support the idea of "rehabilitating" Hus. He was a tragic figure, obviously with deep, deep religious convictions. Yet if he knew what his actions would mean for the future generations in his country, I suspect he might have acted differently.

Stojgniev

Dear Friends,

Hus is also honoured as a Pan-Slavic symbol - by Ukrainians and the Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko whose day today is.

As he wrote:

"Accept my 'duma-lepta'
about the Holy Czech
The Great Martyr
The Glorious Hus!

And I will pray that all Slavs
become as heretical
as the great heretic of Constance!"

The Hussite wars were hardly Hus's fault - in fact, they probably would have occurred even if Hus had not been around.

Jan Zizka, the great Czech military commander, repelled, as we know, the papal armies five times.

Ukrainian Orthodox leaders, such as St Theodore, Prince of Ostrih, employed Hussite tactics in their battles with Roman Catholic armies as well.

Orthodox writers in the 19th century sometimes said that Hus was an herald of the old Cyrillo-Methodian tradition of Bohemia, the Czechs were searching for both a religious and a national identity that was being oppressed by the Roman Catholic church of their day and the German hegemony (which probably accounts for the fact that German Catholics are MOST desirous for a rehabilitation of Hus).

Rome has itself to blame for the Czech situation, just as it has only itself to blame for losing China in the wake of the Chinese Rites controversy.

Hus wrote about the various immoralities of the day - he was in favour of a married priesthood and all other elements to be found in the Eastern Church.

The Roman Catholic Church has always regarded both Hus and Jerome of Prague as holy individuals - and now the Pope himself has given the green light to Hus's rehabilitation and has apologised for Hus's death at the hands of Catholics (Hus, in fact, predicted that the Church would withdraw its excommunication against him one day - this he said before his death - he died forgiving his enemies, invoking the Name of Jesus and reciting the Creed).

Jerome of Prague left Bohemia and travelled to Russia where he became an Orthodox Christian - his Orthodox baptismal certificate was found in Latvia and the Czech Orthodox Church is in possession of it. The Czech Orthodox Church may canonize Jerome of Prague (one of their bishops told me some have said he should be).

St Nikolai Velimirovich, the Serbian hagiographer, wrote a book on Hus entitled, "Saint John Hus." The Czech Orthodox Church is publishing it in Czech next year.

As St Clement Hofbauer, C.Ss.R. once wrote, "The Germans became Protestants, because they wanted to live as Christians." (Interpret that as you will).

But Hus and Jerome were no Protestants, and neither was Joan of Arc who was called a "Protestant" by those who condemned her.

As for Savonarola, he opposed a pope, Alexander VI, who was unworthy of the Throne of Peter.

The Dominican Order has always honoured him, and so have many others, including Saints that the RC Church has canonized.

It was St Catherine of Siena who not only prayed much, but also travelled to argue with the other "popes" of her day who was instrumental in uniting the divided Western Church.

Sometimes even saints cannot afford to remain in silent prayer.

Sometimes they must take a public stand as God's instruments.

Alex

Sadly the once devoutly Catholic land of Bohemia was also responsible for the creation of numerous anti-Christian Freethinker Societies in North America. Recently on a visit to Chicago's Bohemian National Cemetery I was astounded to see how Masonic symbols clearly outnumered Christian symbols in a cemetery founded because a teenage girl was refused burial in consecrated ground. Amazing too is the large number of Czechs in Chicago who preferred to have their final send off from this world from the lodge rather than the House of God.

Dear Lawrence,

You are more than correct!

The Czechs can be inimical, in general, to RCism - something I maintain is mainly the fault of Rome - and Germany.

Rome's historical political machinations have gotten it in trouble - not only with the UGCC and Moscow Patriarchate situations.

Let's also remember that the Polish Kings often went into voluntary schism from Rome when they didn't agree with Rome's policies.

The years that the Polish Church was in actual schism from Rome since its Baptism as a Christian nation number almost . . . 200 years.


Alex