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Understanding your point I think St Catherine of Siena's case is slightly different. She did what she needed to do and though she showed no fear in doing it she did not incite the avenging angel to come from France to clean up Italy. Indeed, she spent lots of time trying to stop wars rather than start them. Louis XIII wasnt much better than Alexander VI anyway...

Yes, sometimes saints cant always pray. But Catherine would have done nothing but pray had Jesus not expressly told her to do otherwise. Once again her internal reform was completele long before her mission in the world began.

Dear Myles,

O.K., I'm not here to argue, we have different perspectives on things - as it should be!

Would you please go to the prayer thread and tell me what you think about my akathist to Andrew Sheptytsky?

It would mean a great deal to me!

(And I WON'T be doing an akathist to Savonarola, O.K.? )

Alex

Okie dokie

Dear Friends,

One more interesting (I think) fact relating to Savonarola.

One of his disciples, a Dominican, left Italy after witnessing Savonarola's brutal execution and rejection.

He travelled to Russia and became an Orthodox monk there.

Here are some icons of St Maximos the Greek:

http://www.days.ru/Images/ii1424&930.htm

He roundly condemned the immorality of the Catholic upper classes and the West in general, in his writings.

He suffered much on account of his defence of the Old Rite.

This monk was canonized an Orthodox saint in 1988 as "St Maximos the Greek."

He had always been venerated a saint by the Russian Old Believers.

Maximos had a lot to do with the introduction of Savonarola's sermons into Russian spiritual literature.

Alex

Savonarola was a great man who never attempted to start a new church but only to clean up the old one. I'd recommend that anyone with doubts about the man's Holiness read Pierre Van Paassen's 'Crown Of Fire'.

Myles,

Savonarola was known for great personal holiness, reforming the Dominicans of San Marco, and improving the moral life of the Florentines. I don't think he can be considered a failure. His criticism was soley against the decadent and immoral life he found in society and regrettably in the papal court. I'll take Savonarola over Pope Alexander VI anyday.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Look below, misfire

After what God did for me yesterday I have lost the heart to argue, so if you feel Savonarola was a true reformer then I wont argue. But I will take my cues from others:

An extract from a biography of St Francis of Assisi.

Dear Myles,

St Francis, as a number of Franciscans have told me over the years, was also very much against the hierarchical power structures of the RC Church of his day - so much so that he refused to be ordained a priest and didn't want his followers to be either.

J.P. Olivi and others who followed in St Francis' footsteps later were much villified by the RC church authorities and there were cases of holy Franciscans who signed petitions against papal excesses of their day. One such locally honoured Beatus (I forget his name, but have a picture of his statue at home) signed such a petition and this will prevent his ever being canonized, according to some hagiographers.

The Franciscan tradition is hardly the docile one we would make it out to be.

Alex

Then perhaps I can be the docile one then

Dear Myles,

Happy Birthday!

Yes, you can leave the ecclesial activism stuff to the likes of us!

God bless,

Alex

Back to the Czechs - I've spent a great deal of time in the Czech Republic, where I have some distant relatives. The Czech attitude towards religion - ranging from indifference to outright hostility - can be very depressing. Contempt for religion is strongest in Bohemia & them somewhat milder in Moravia & Czech Silesia (it's funny, as you travel eastward towards Slovakia, religiousity increases. Then in Ukraine, it increases in the opposite direction - intensifying from east to west).

The Hussites made various overtures towards Orthodoxy, chiefly in accord with the principle that "your enemy is my friend". As far as I know, the Hussite ambassadors were all rejected by Orthodox Russians as heretics.

Zizka is one of the most infamous Hussites. He & his troops took great pleasure in burning, robbing & raping, as even many Czechs will admit to you.

One of the misfortunes experienced by the Czech Hussites is the same problem encountered historically in Protestantism (& among Russian schismatics) - they kept splintering into sects that got further & further away from Hus' teachings. A century after Hus' execution you had all variety of dissidents. In Prague I had a very intelligent professor, an authority on Czech religious history, who was descended from a group of dissidents in southern Bohemia. Of course, the "reform" kept snowballing, so that by the 19th century you had Free Thought (still very influential among Czechs) & agnosticism.

One final criticism of Hussitism - it was embraced by the communists (who proclaimed the dissident Taborites the "first true communists"). In postwar Czechoslovakia the communist government constantly made use of Hussite symbols. In few other communist countries were the Roman and Greek Catholics so persecuted as in Czechoslovakia & much of that persecution was fueled by the Hussite rhetoric of the government.

Stojgniev

Dear Stoygniev,

That the communists would have made use of Hussitic symbolism and teachings to further their cause - that is no surprise.

They also made use of the Ukrainian Taras Shevchenko, portraying him as a harbinger of communism etc.

The Reds simply used popular heroes and culture to surround their propaganda with.

Zizka is a hero to the Czechs - what his soldiers did is what all soldiers did and do, including the papal armies sent into Bohemia by Rome, including imperial Poland, imperial Russia etc.

So your criticism of Hussitism, and Hussitism can be criticized, as can any movement, is also a criticism of Rome and others.

In fact, Orthodoxy has looked with a sympathetic eye to the teachings of Hus and the Calixtine (Catholic) reform movement (as opposed to the Protestant Taborite and others).

In the 19th century, a group of Old Catholics approached the Orthodox Church of Russia and asked whether Jan Hus could be honoured by them (should they unite with Orthodoxy) as a saint.

An edition of the Czech Orthodox Calendar published some years back carried this entire discussion.

The Serbian Saint Nikolai Velimirovich wrote the book: "Saint John Hus" and this will be published by the Czech Orthodox Church next year - according to its website.

In fact, because the Orthodox Church tended to view Hus as a hearkening back to the Cyrillo-Methodian tradition of Bohemia (married priesthood, liturgy in the language of the people, Communion under both Kinds), this opened the door to conversion to Orthodoxy of many Hussites.

I once came across a Czech Orthodox priest who said, to my great surprise, that he wished his Church would allow for the veneration of Hus and Jerome of Prague as this would greatly aid in bringing into Orthodoxy of more Protestant Hussites (most of his parish were converts from Hussite Protestantism).

I once corresponded with the Orthodox Bishop of Brno who told me that the Orthodox prayerbook they have contains a hymn in honour of Hus (I think it is more of a national, than religious, hymn) and that it is possible that Jerome of Prague could become an Orthodox saint, as they now have his Orthodox baptismal certificate.

The Calixtine Hussites were Catholic in every which way but the Pope. Later, they actually did reunite with Rome and were organized into a kind of "rite" or "usage" that allowed Communion under both Kinds.

Alex

Dear Alex,

You've made a good argument for why some Christians might honor Hus.

It's true that Orthodoxy was something of a fad in 19th century Bohemia.

But in the end for me, I see only the many negatives associated with Hus & his followers. Hus is a political figure & if he inspires most people today, it is because of his historical role. The role of a holy man should be something quite different. I wonder how many Czechs actually have been led to salvation through Hus?

I could make the same criticism of some other recently canonized saints, who inspire the faithful more towards national pride or ethnic consciousness than towards Christian humility.

Stojgniev

Dear Stoygniev,

Books and articles have been written on the points you raise - the discussion is without limits, as you well know!

The Czech Orthodox Church is certainly no fad today and, as a Greek-Catholic, I see no reason to believe otherwise.

That Hus is a national figure shows precisely how great BOTH religious and political passions can be.

I had a Czech (socialist) professor who escaped the Dubcek era - he loved Hus but rejected Hus' religiosity.

Today, the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Prague attends the ceremonies at the Hus memorial in Prague.

Hus' statue seems to have graced every second village in Bohemia and the Jesuits seemed intent on stamping his cult out by pushing the cult of "St John Nepomuk" - whose veneration was reduced to local status by the RC Church in 1963, I believe.

Hus opposed bitterly the immorality of the clergy of his time, and he did this as Rector of the University of Prague. Should he have remained silent? He wrote treatises on spiritual retreats, stressing frequent prayer, purity of heart, freedom from sexual sins and obedience to God's Will in all things.

Rome's political machinations harmed the cause of the Church in Bohemia and on this we will disagree.

If the Czechs had an Orthodox Church to go to, I think they all would have at that time.

Western Ukraine was in a similar situation. Ukrainian Greek-Catholics at least had their own Eastern Church to support them in their struggle with Polish Catholic hegemony at that time (Poland has been VERY nice to Ukraine in its recent struggles to become truly free and democratic bygones are bygones etc. ).

I, for one, trust His Holiness the Pope whose former Archdiocese of Krakow had its own Hussite history, as you know.

The Pope has seen fit to approve the reexamination of that entire time period and has formally expressed his regret over the burning of Hus (and Hus was very Catholic, with a great devotion to the Mass and to the Assumption of the Mother of God).

Our Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky was likewise a very holy man - but he also defended his Church and people entrusted to him.

This earned him reproval from a number of circles who called him "political" and much more distasteful things - your University of Krakow, as I understand it, also published two books against Met. Andrei, in effect, calling him a traitor to Poland etc.

This kind of political nastiness has not prevented Ukrainian (Russian and other Greek) Catholics (and many Ukrainian Orthodox) from venerating Met. Andrei as a saint, even though the political issues keep him from the honours of the altar.

And this despite the fact that he participated in the consecration of the current Pope as bishop . . .

The other Polish bishop who participated in the consecration is now well on the way to becoming a saint.

Many of us don't think that is fair on Rome's part.

Rome really did write the book on political machinations and the horrendous policy of "Ostpolitik."

Hus' observation about the bad things that came from Rome that affected Christianity in Bohemia is something that many Ukrainians, and others, can certainly relate to.

Alex