www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Purgatory

I want to ask a question, here goes.

Purgatory is the biggest thing at this point in my life outside of condemnation to Hell's fires.

Raised a Roman, it (Purgatory) was implicit in our training.

Not such in the Eastern Church of which I have the highest respect.

But, knowing how the Romans have to legislate seemingly everything imanigable, & after these 65 years on this planet, I feel I have a grasp on this issue.

Correct me or enlighten me please.

What I think is the Eastern Church has not defined the issue, prays for the departed souls, whereas the Western Church, in the spirit on the Roman Law, had to legislate it.

Feedback Plase,

Jim

Jim,

First off, I recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaching on purgatory.

I really don't think that Roman and Orthodox teaching on purification after death are that much different (my opinion).

The RCC has spent a lot of effort to define things, but a duck is a duck no matter how much detail you use to describe it.

I also liked Fr. Benedect Groschel's discussion on purgatory/purification in his book, "Arise from Darkness".

Christ's peace be with you.

Paul

Ducks are created by God (and are delicious when properly cooked). Purgatory is a medieval theological construct, representing an attempt to dogmatize about an area of eschatology which has not been fully revealed to us - the undoubted need for prayers for the dead does not require Purgatory. I suggest that we pray for the dead and offer the Liturgy and other services for the dead as the Church asks us to do, and then leave the matter in the hands of Almighty God.

As C.S. Lewis (who believed in Purgatory, by the way), once cogently observed, the argument "decuit, potuit, ergo fecit" is highly problematic when people apply it to God, because God's idea of just what "decet" is apt to be vastly different from our own.

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Why a duck? --Groucho Marx

But seriously:

Jim,

A lot of discusion on the Orthodox and Catholic views of purgatory/purification/prayers for the dead have been posted on the Forum.

You may want to use the search function of the Forum to get Eastern/Roman Catholic and Orthodox beliefs of members.

Paul

You bring up a point that most do not understand-the need to pray for the dead. Most do not grasp the need without a Purgatory or some other state. Would you mind developing that thought a bit further?

My mind is not at its best at this cow-milking hour, but here's a bit to consider: there is an important difference between East and West regarding prayers for the dead if the dead in question are infants or young children. In that event, the West declines to pray for them (which the parents do not appreciate). The East, however, DOES pray for deceased infants and young children, asking that Christ's promises be realized in the specific child or children being mentioned. The notion that a baptized infant is now in Purgatory is downright bizarre (and cannot arise unless people are strongly committed to the Purgatory idea). But the notion that we should ask God - humbly - to do what He has promised to do and what we have Faith that He will indeed do is not bizarre at all.

As to older children and adults who have already predeceased us. We are enjoined to pray for them as an act of love and solidarity. Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, among others, regards this prayer as necessary and righteous, so it would take considerable temerity to refuse it. Exactly how these prayers are efficacious is, as I said, a matter that is not revealed to us (presumably because we do not need to know the answer to that question); it is enough that Scripture and Tradition teach us to pray for the dead. God will decide what to do, and we believe that our prayers and intercessions reach up to God.

By the way, I mentioned ducks because of Paul's comment that "a duck is a duck no matter how much detail you use to describe it."


Incognitus

Dear Jim ...

I landed on your post, and you asked for feedback - so here it is.

I wondered how to reply last night when I read your post. I too am a Catholic and I remain Catholic at the same time that I share in this wonderful world of the Byzantine Church and this wonderful online borad where members of Orthodox, Byzantine, and Catholic merge.

And so I tried to write a reply - but - it became too lengthily and complex (often happens with me) that I deleted it.

Do not be offended when I say that you do not understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. It is a common problem among members of the Catholic church. There persists a misinterpretation outside of Catholic members also - that is similar to how the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is thought to mean that Mary conceived Jesus without having sex. It is a mis-conception of the doctrine (that pun was not intended).

So I can assure you that what you think the Catholic church teaches on the action they call Purgatory - is wrong. When you do come to understand the doctrine better you will find that it is shared by the Eastern Churches as well - and stated nicely in its theology from a different perspective (the process of deification).

Upon rising this morning - an analogy came to my mind. One that actually intrigued me so much as accurate - that - well - here it is.

The internet is huge. But virus is common. A virus is when some malcontent gets his hands on computer code that is used to created your email program, or operating system (Windows in most cases) and - changes it.

The malcontent examines the code with an intent to subvert it. Use it - to his advantage. And so he writes a virus and embeds that virus within something that appears beneficial. Then he sends that out into the world - and several people receive it.

It comes in - your email. But it is either hidden - or - masquerades as something safe and attractive. Perhaps it comes pretending to be a message from a friends (�Hi, I found this for you�) or perhaps it pretends to be an official notification (�Microsoft recommends you download this security patch.�) and what it is trying to entice you to do is - open it. And if you open the email - your computer is now - infected.

Once your computer is infected - you will be unaware that you have been hijacked - and your own computer is now (unknown to you) spreading the virus - further. It reads your list of friends with whom you communicate with - and sends itself to each of them.

One of the main purposes of this virus - is to hijack enough personal computers - so as to launch a �Denial of Service� attack. That is done by the virus spreading itself to your friends - and from them to their friends - etc.. When enough are infected - hidden code inside the virus goes out onto the web and sends messages to - one particular web site server. This public web site is the - target - of the attack.

These messages are constructed by the virus writer - so that the targeted web site sever - can not resolve them -but tries like heck - to figure them out and reply. When enough infected computers are launching this attack - the targeted web site is swamped - overwhelmed - and can not service its normal visitors in a proper way. It becomes bogged down - and people who try to visit is - get a blank screen or jumbled up pages that make no sense. Hence the name of this attack is called a �Denial of Service� attack. The victim web site server has been denied its services to its visitors and its visitors have been denied its service - by the the author of the virus. An your computer (unknown to you) has helped it to achive its goal.

Now this ! � Is what happens to the Church.

Someone either misunderstands - or intentional wishes to subvert - one of its doctrines. And so the words of that doctrine are manipulated to another purpose. In the case of the Immaculate Conception of Mary it is manipulated to seem to mean - that Jesus was conceived in Mary�s womb without Mary having had - sex. In the case of the doctrine of Purgatory - the most perpetrated virus is one that subverts it to �Purgatory is a place� a location to which you are sent after death�.

When that virus begins to spread (which it has) infected people infect other people - and then they in turn infect their friends. The virus looks to be �official� and pretends to be the �official teaching of the Catholic Church� - but - it is not.

When this fake doctrine (masquerading as an official doctrine) has infected enough people - the Church experiences a - denial of services attack - and can not offer its services to people infected with the virus. And so they have no means to be cured of the virus.

When you computer bogs down and does not operate properly and does weird things - that is a sign that it has been infected by hidden virus.

What you need is a virus checker. And that is something - you - have to install - yourself.


I encourage you to either one of two cures for your virus. But you must first recognize that you have - the virus.

1) read the Catholic Catechism as it pertains to Purgatory and the act (not the �place�) the action - of purgation which God uses upon us to purge us from sin and the effects of sin. Understand that this action does take place here - in life - and if not completed before death - is continued after death. One can not see God face to face without being purged of sin and its effects.

2) learn Eastern doctrine about the stages of the spiritual life - which are three� Purgation, Enlightenment, Union. Although the stage of - purgation - is listed as the first step (and the most necessary stage) purgation continues in the soul right up to the souls final union with God. The stage of Enlightenment - is also a further purgation of the mind - where false ideals and habits are purged and replaced by higher truth - in stages.

When you have understood either well (purgation in the Eastern theology - or - purgation in the Western theology) you will then be able to understand the other.

The Church (Orthodox, Catholic, Eastern, Latin, Oriental, etc..) is a Doctor - and all of us are in need of a cure. But to benefit from its services - we must first recognizes that we are infected - and then go to Her with humility (the knowledge that we can be wrong about something) and let the Church apply the cure. This perhaps is the hard part - we - must admit that we are infected. We hate to think of ourselves as - infected - but this is the meaning of the Eastern doctrine of - humility - and we make no progress without it. It is certainly one of the most difficult for me.


I hope you are not offended by this analogy. Myself, when it came to my mind, I was intrigued by it. And it applies to myself the same as it applies to anyone.

The good Deacon John - is like our �emergency room intern� and if you follow his suggestions - you will be on the way to ridding yourself of this virus.

Peace be with you my friend.

-ray

I think some souls, like John Paul II, or Mother Theresa, return to God at the fastest speed possible - like metal is attracted to a nearby magnet. Others, by the way they choose to live their lives, are farther away from the magnet and, after their deaths, the journey home is going to take longer.
The Servant of God, Wolfgang

Whether we are referring to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or Church writings on the subject of "purgatory" I think we need to think in terms of a "process" of purification rather than a "place" or a "punishment."

I will agree with those in the East who may see this process as part of deification which may or may not extend to after death.

However, with God there is no time chronologically like we perceive time. So I understand the purgation as well as deification concepts to mean a state of being which is in a process of change. Surely don't know how that works, but do trust it. Few of us attain perfection in this life. Few of us are ready to see God face to face - an awesome and glory filled moment. We need to be freed from sin and from what I can see the teaching on purgatory is part of that preparation whether it happens here or hereafter.

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Porter... trying to learn more and more about Eastern Christian eschatology.

Now that is a swell simple way to think of it. The more I roll it over in my mind - the more of a fine analogy does it appear.

Did you think of this yourself? I think not - I think you just found it in your head one day.

Souls who are entirely purged while yet living - do indeed go straight into God at the moment of death. By not automatically because their freedom is not violated. There will be some small 'earthly attachments which are not sinful - and if we can use your analogy - as the magnet pulls stronger - they let go of these small attachments of habit to body life - and 'sail' ever faster into God.

The human will is attracked to what is good. There is no liberty to that. Our freedom exists as to the means we chose to obtain what the mind identifies as good. And so we know eating food to be a good but we are free to chose the means (work or steal).

It is just this attraction to what is good - that imopells us into God. The deeper we enter into God - the more good we expereince - and the more good we expereince the more attracted to it we are.

A fine soul once explained to me that after death - we are impelled into God - and since God is eternal - there is no end of him - and so for all eternity we are impelled ever deeper and ever faster - into the never ending God.

At some point - that is just beyond my comprehension.

Anyway - that you for telling us that really fitting analogy. I truly am stunned at how fitting (all around) that is. Even to the comparison at being so far away from God and the pull is less and less the further we are away.

-ray

Among the signs in the crowd"
Santo Subito!

djs,
There are saints in purgatory, they are a part of the redeemed. I have yet to meet a soul that was totally purged or purified here on earth and I am somewhat sure that even such a holy person as John Paul and Mother Theresa still had to undergo this process. No perhaps someone who died in the baptismal pool who sliped (oops) might be among that number!
Stephanos I
Eternal Memory John Paul, Pope of Rome!
We give thanks to You, O Master, lover of mankind, benefactor of our souls, that this day You have deemed us worthy of Your heavenly and immortal mysteries. Make straight our path, confirm us in our fear of You, and guard our life, make firm our steps, through the prayers and intercession of the glorious Mother of God and ever Virgin Mary, and all Your saints. For You are our santification, and we render glory to You, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, now and ever and forever. Amen.

Dear Jim,

I think you are correct.

I think both East and West have the same basic idea. Namely, the dead might be saved, but they often must be further purified / divinized before they can enter into Heaven. Thus, the dead often greatly benefit by the prayers of the living. Thus, we should pray for the dead.

But, there are differences.

The Eastern mindset (in general) seems to be more mystical: it emphasizes experiencing the mysteries, which it recognizes as being beyond human comprehension. So, it doesn't bother itself with defining what is beyond our ability to define; it just says: pray for the dead!

In contrast, the Western mindset is more legalistic. It is more given to philosophical definition and ecclesiastical legislation. So, the West did seek to define the subject and it did legislate upon it. Yet, after all that, the West (at least, the Catholics) also tells its people: pray for the dead!

In sum, I think your summary is correct. You asked for feedback. The only feedback I would make, humbly, is this: It is ultimately more important to remember that both East and West tell their people to pray for the dead.

--John

I tend understand that. Thanks.

I imagine that even these we consider to be so close to God - need some minor attachements purged at the end.


BTW (a note of humor here) did anybody notice that if you reply to a post in this thread - once you are finsihed and press the button to make the post - the software says...

"Sit tight... We are taking you back to: Purgatory"


-ray

Wolfgang,

Christ is Risen!

What a great analogy.

Thanks for your insight.

In Christ,

John