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Purgatory is infallibly set forth in the Magisterium. I will not be careful with the "H" word. Heresy is heresy and I will call it when I see it.

Paromer,

If we use your formula the only way someone can be a heretic is if they don't believe in the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. That is just completely illogical. Heresy is the post baptismal denial or doubt of some truth which must be believed with Divine and Catholic fatih. Purgatory is such. If you do not accept this teaching then you are a heretic.

Dear Mike,

That souls who are not fully ready to enter Heaven need to prayer to be purified - that all the Apostolic Churches accept.

It is the "what" about Purgatory and the name as well that has differing understandings.

I would also like to know what the true Roman Catholic definition of Purgatory really is.

Could someone define it in "real terms" or in a way that is not allegorical or poetic etc.?

How does the Latin Church understand Purgatory? Is it a place different from heaven and hell - how can one understand it?

Does one need to accept the term "purgatory?" And what about indulgences?

Alex

The Holy Ecumenical Council of Trent stated,

Canon XXX. If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

Pope John Paul II stated:

Purgatory Is Necessary Purification

Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness.

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude.

Dear Alex,
Not to over simplify the issue, regardless of the many fine emails I've read, there are many different opinions in RC theological circles. Certain facts must be believed: Souls not in the "state of grace" (or in the condition of sin) cannot be in the presence of God. So something/place must occur for the total sanctification and cleansing of the soul. This is not a quid pro quo. Remember,a thousand years are as the blink of the eye to the Imortal One. The RC does not state difinitively that fire even exists in what has been called "Purgatory". I know this differs a lot in the understanding I have that Orthodox believe. I think we all agree 1)There must be purging of the soul before union with the Imortal God, 2) We can help those souls by prayer and sacrifices, and, 3)Death puts an end to the concept of time as we know it.
Pray without ceasing...Michael ICC

The RC church where I am organist has an Irish assistant pastor - yep, straight from Dublin. He keeps talking about a place called "purgatree" and someone in Hell named "Old Nick." Of course the congregation is totally baffled.

Attention Mike 0126c (are you into numerology?):

In a fine expression taken straight from the Fathers of the Church "it is only thyself thou hast cut off".

Taking you at your word - which is that you strongly believe me to be a heretic - then you have no business to address me at all. Kindly act accordingly, and the same applies to any other immobilists who hold similar opinions. May you live in interesting times.

Incognitus

Dear Mike 0126,

Then the Eastern Churches have always believed that the souls not ready to enter heaven are prevented from doing so and require the help of the Divine LIturgy and prayer from us to assist them!

The term "purgatory" is not used - but after reading your quotes, I see that the Orthodox Eastern Church has a much more developed eschatology in this respect and a much greater commitment to prayer for the dead!

Catholics can learn a thing or two from the Orthodox East here.

Alex

Being with you Eastern people has definitly deepened my understanding - in both the Orthodox and Catholic.

You did mean the East Coast - right?

hehe

Mike,

The following is what the CCC has to state on Purgatory and as far as I can see know one on this thread ahs denied any of the essentials. Please refrain from calling anyone a heretic.

Fr. Deacon Lance

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

1054 Those who die in God's grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

1055 By virtue of the "communion of saints," the Church commends the dead to God's mercy and offers her prayers, especially the holy sacrifice of the Eucharist, on their behalf.


The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reference here to "purifying fire" is ONLY directed to Latin Catholics.

At the Council of Florence, the Greeks were NOT required to understand purgatory in terms of a "fire."

Am I right?

And I always thought that a "heretic" these days is someone who doesn't cry while watching "It's a Wonderful Life. . ."

Alex

Alex,

Yes, purification is the essence of the teaching, fire an accident. The CCC speaks of fire as a small "t" tradition in its paragraphs on Purgatory and not at all in its paragraphs on the punishment of sin.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thank-you Deacon Lance, as far as I know laity have no authority to decide who is a heretic or schismatic anyway. I really have to cringe when I hear people doing this and so far I have found little of it on this forum which is one reason I enjoy coming here. The only thing I have seen in this discussion are various perspectives on the souls purification after death which do not in any way contradict Church teaching.

A Sister In Christ

When I read posts like the one above, it reminds me of the canonical pennance for those who falsely accuse a cleric of heresy: ten years without Holy Communion. Perhaps the Latins should recover (or adopt) this canon or one like it, to help curtail those who like to pretend they are bishops from hurling anathemas?

What think ye, would this help?

Dear Ghazar,

Well, I don't know . . .

Catholicos Philip Mor Ephrem was, I think, about to excommunicate me for even mentioning the term "headless Severus . . . "

I think he's calmed down by now, though . . .

Does the Armenian Church accept St Severus of Antioch in her calendar?

Alex