www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Patriarch Alexy II sets conditions for Popes visit to Russia

A long-desired trip by Pope John Paul II to Russia could only occur if the Vatican renounces efforts to expand Rome-affiliated churches in traditional Christian Orthodox areas, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church said.

The condition set by Patriarch Alexy II - contained Tuesday in a reply to questions from The Associated Press - reinforces previous statements and suggests Russian Orthodox leaders have not been swayed by recent Vatican overtures that have included the return of an important icon and the relics of two Orthodox saints.

Before a papal visit to Russia can be considered, "it is essential to renounce the proselytism which is being carried out ... by numerous representatives of the Catholic clergy," Alexy wrote in response to the AP's questions.

Eastern Rite churches - which retain Orthodox traditions but are loyal to the Vatican - are one of the thorniest issues blocking attempts to heal the nearly 1,000-year-old division between the world's 1 billion Roman Catholics and more than 200 million Orthodox.

The churches have grown since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 and many senior Orthodox clergy accuse the Vatican of trying to encroach on historic Orthodox lands. Alexy said the Eastern Rite churches "only deepen the divisions between Orthodox and Catholics."

But the pope has pushed ahead with attempts to reach out to Orthodox. He has made a series of history-making trips into mostly Orthodox nations since the late 1990s and conducted joint worship with the world's Orthodox spiritual leader, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I.

Yet Russia, the most populous Orthodox nation, has remained closed to the ailing, 84-year-old pontiff, who has sharply cut back on his travels in recent years.

Alexy offered little hope the door could open. Beside a demand for a Vatican declaration on its Eastern Rite policies, Alexy stressed the importance to "normalize" the church disputes in Ukraine, where the pope visited in 2001.

The Russian Orthodox Church is angered by possible moves by the Vatican to give patriarchate status to Greek Catholics, an Eastern Rite church that has expanded into traditionally Orthodox eastern and southern Ukraine.

Alexy called it part of "unfriendly activities toward the Russian Orthodox Church."

"The concrete problems which stand between us and complicate the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue ought to be discussed and resolved in practice," he wrote.

But he welcomed the latest Vatican acts as a possible "sign of readiness" to advance discussions.

In August, the Vatican sent back to Moscow an 18th-century replica of the Mother of God of Kazan icon, a work that first appeared in the Volga River city of Kazan in 1579 and is revered by many Russian believers. The copy of the icon was smuggled to the West after the 1917 Russian Revolution and had hung in the pope's private chapel.

In November, the Vatican returned the relics of two 4th-century Orthodox saints to Istanbul, the former Byzantine capital, then called Constantinople, and the seat of the Orthodox ecumenical patriarch.
[end of AP story]

Dear Lord, can we ever love each other to bring about unity? Lord, may we be one as You are one in the Holy Trinity! Lord, grant us Your Peace!
Amen, Amen, Amen.

John

Dear Friend,

But why would anyone want unity with the ROC as it is today?

Should we not be praying for its purification of imperial political involvement with the Russian state first?

Alex

Patriarch Alexy II is simply a MEAN old man.

He seems to enjoy the rush of spitefulness and hatred. His face even shows it. He certainly isn't showing true Christian charity.

UNAXIOS!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Dont hold your breath for this to happen.
The Pope of Rome is far too popular with a lot of people, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and even non christians. So therefore he is a threat and most likely not welcomed anyway.
Stephanos I

God bless our Holy Father who suffers in patient endurance. I would find it difficult to be as charitable as he is to the Patriarch, recognizing the utter hypocrisy of the ROC crying foul regarding the presence and growth of Eastern and Roman Catholic churches on Russian soil - all the while expanding its own mission in traditional Western countries.

My two cents.

Yeah, it's funny how the Russian Orthodox Church can expand to its little heart's desire in countries like France, but when the tables are turned, look who's the good cop and look who's the bad cop.

A couple of thoughts...

Does anyone find this surprising? Did anyone think that the return of the Kazan Icon would somehow sway Alexy's opinion on the matter? Perhaps I'm too cynical, but give me a break...if the Pope wishes to wait for the Patriarch's permission to visit Russia (an admirable if not misplaced desire), he will surely die before it's granted. He is fast approaching repose in the Lord every day that passes, and unless a miracle happens, he's not setting a foot on Russian soil.

Of course if I were Pope I'd say (after this many attempts at friendliness), "Screw what Alexy says, I'm gettin' on the plane tomorrow." But then again, that's one of the reasons (among many others!) I'll never be Pope!

And do you really think that the Vatican used the Kazan Icon as a bartering tool for admission into Russia for the Pontiff? It seems like it. And is this really commendable- - -bartering religious items for admittance into a nation? Doesn't make sense to me, anyway.

Lastly, the AP seems to assert that St. Gregory Nazienzen and St. John Chrysostom are only "Orthodox saints [sic]" (meaning, I suppose, that they are viewed as saints by the Orthodox Churches); they are also venerated as such by the Catholic Church, which is why their relics have been venerated in the Eternal City for the past few centuries.

And, in all fairness, SPDundas, I don't think it's proper to refer to a duly ordained Patriarch as "MEAN" and that his face shows it. He certainly seems that way, but only God can judge someone's reasons for his actions. Perhaps Alexy is doing what he truly believes is just and right and attempting to answer and act in accordance with the Will of the Holy Spirit as he sees fit. I strongly disagree with his actions, but I simply can't presume him to be something I don't know for a fact that he is, especially since he's a hierarch who's devoted his life to God (ostensibly, at least...who can say?).

Logos Teen

Grace and peace to Patriarch Alex II.

I am curious. Does he travel outside Russia?

Paul

who would invite him?
Much Love,
Jonn

I think a big problem for the ROC is that the hierarchy has been too cozy with the government. It seems open to debate as to whether these are men of God, or men of the Russian government who have been placed in the Church so the government can control it. I don't quite know how Alexy fits in all this.

Dear ByzanTN:

Look no further than the MP's actions (not words)vis a vis the Ukrainian elections.

Le plus la change, le plus le meme chose.

Votre,

hal

All I have to say is that they are lucky that I am not the Pope! I think what needs to be done is a re-condemnation of Protestant beliefs. I think we should also tighten up with the Orthodox. I would change the Code of Canon Law so that the Orthodox may not receive the Sacraments of Penance, Holy Communion, and Annointing of the Sick from us unless they are in grave danger of death and willingly ask for it. I would re-condemn their teaching that the Holy Pope of Rome does not hold primacy over the entire Church of Christ. I think we should quit being all nice and watering down what the truth is. Heresy is heresy. Schism is schism. All though those born into these groups are not personally guilty of heresy and schism, the teachings should always be condemned that are not in accord with the Holy Apostolic Church of Rome. I am not trying to be mean. That is just the way I see it.

Pax vobiscum.
Michael

Dear Mike,

Actually, according to the Orthodox, Catholics are in schism because they are heretics.

So I welcome you as a fellow heretic, from the Orthodox point of view.

Misery just loves comfort!

But seriously, when did Rome EVER condemn the Orthodox Church on ANYTHING?

Can you give Popes, dates etc.?

Please let us know!

Alex

Mike, I disagree with your comments, and so does the Magesterium. I take it from your comments you would have difficulty with the Second Vatican Council and Magesterial documents since then which are in conflict with your opinions?

All of us of legitimate Apostolic Succession have a common fight, as Metropolitan St. Peter Moghila mentioned, combating the "inroads of Protestantism" and other heretical ideas, including ultramontanism.

Alexy is a "living icon" of an era of church hierarchy rooted in collusion and support of the Soviet regime. His previous activities are well known (i.e. his past as Agent Drozdov, etc). His attempted intervention in the Ukrainian election is a sure sign that the times are changing, and was ineffectual in the ultimate outcome (but certainly created some local problems in places). Signs that this is true are that several MP clergy refused to follow and support Yanukovych outright and were quite vocal about it.

But to be fair, not all Russians feel that way at all. Fr. Alexander Men of blessed memory, Fr. Gleb Yakunin and other MP clergy have been outspoken in pointing this out. Others are still doing it today.

Many laity see him as connected too closely to Putin and previous regimes, and as unrest starts to unfold and increase in Russia, the hierarchy will not be spared, either.

I personally do not think a trip will happen in this Pope's lifetime given his health and the "conditions" of Alexy.

May God have mercy on all of us and bless the reunion of all of the churches of Rus' in peace and love.

God can work in his own mysterious way. It might be that those is high places are brought low or removed.
Stephanos I

PS I am thinking of starting a new post on the Memorial of Metro. St. Peter Moghila on his thoughts of union.

Diak,

It is one thing to say that you don't agree with my comments but to say that my comments do not agree with the Magisterium of the Church is merely just your own opinion of what the Magisterium teaches. The Magisterium teaches that schism is a refusal to submit to the Roman Pontiff. With that in mind, did and do the Orthodox refuse to submit to the Roman Pontiff? With that definition in mind one can only say YES. I fully accept the all the teachings of Vatican II. My words do not contradict anything. To not believe in purgatory is a heresy. To not believe in the Immaculate Conception as the Holy Church of Rome has defined it is heretical. Granted that one must be Catholic first to become a heretic, the ideas are heretical.

Orthodox Catholic,

Yes I know that the Orthodox Church considers the Holy Catholic Church to be heretics. We must also be clear when we talk that there is not one Orthodox Church but MANY Churches that have NO truly centralized head. It is also funny that almost all of the Orthodox Churches accepted at least one of the early heresies. But the Holy Apostolic Church of Rome did not nor can not speak anything heretically.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
Michael