www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Patriarch Alexy II sets conditions for Popes visit to Russia

Mike and Spdundas,

I am not young, refuse to believe that I'm old, don't think of myself as extremist, and try not to be rude - although I suspect I will have failed at the latter by the time I finish this post. I am, however, opinionated and my opinionation leans strongly in the direction of charitable discourse.

Deacon John opened this thread by posting an AP news story that described the opposition of His Beatitude Alexy to the visit of His Holiness John Paul II to Moscow. It's not a new topic, except that folks are always wondering and/or hopeful as to what, if anything, might change in the face of new direct and indirect overtures to the Patriarch by the Pope.

From the article, it appears that no such change has come about. So, what is there to discuss? We can't effect change on His Beatitude's part; so, there's little to say other than to express frustration with what we see as intransigence or, perhaps, to speculate on what more can be done. And, that is essentially what most folks have addressed in their replies/comments.

However, at this point, the thread is disintigrating into a spitting contest between two members whose initial posts were equally ugly and non-contributory. Spdundas' remark characterizing Patriarch Alexy as "a MEAN old man" was about as juvenile a post as one could have hoped to see. Mike's crusaderistic call for a re-condemnation of Orthodoxy was about as triumphalistic a post as one could have hoped to see. The subsequent engagement between them, which Garrett and Charles have done a remarkable job of trying to mediate, has done little other than to reinforce the facts that Mike is a Latin triumphalist and that Spdundas has a condescending attitude toward youth that he expresses as rudely and arrogantly as those same characteristics are used by the one whom he is maligning.

It's time to stop fighting, kids (which is how the both of you are acting), and spend your energies in some more productive manner, either useful discussion of issues or prayer - take your pick.

Many years,

Neil

Pray that you do get old Mike because with every day and every experience you will be given more cchances to know Gods will, come to love Him, more opportunities to work out your own salvation, hopefully help others on their path to the Lord. Learning a little respect and humility wouldnt hurt you either.

Yours in Christ

Dear DJS,

Below is a question that I submitted to Robert J. Flummerfelt, J.C.L. on the EWTN forum for Canon Law:
Could you please tell me where it says in the Code of Canon Law for Eastern Churches that one must attend Divine Liturgy or the Divine Praises in a Catholic Church sui iuris to fulfill one's obligation. I've looked and it just says to attend Divine Liturgy or Divine Praises and doesn't specify, from what I saw, if one must fulfill this in a Church in communion with Rome or not.

Dominus tecum, Michael

Answer by Robert J. Flummerfelt, J.C.L. on 01-23-2005:

Hi Michael,

Canon 1248 of the Latin Code of Canon Law states, "�1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.

�2 If it is impossible to assist at a eucharistic celebration, either because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly recommended to take part in a liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or, as occasion presents, in a group of families."

Canon 881 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches states as well the same thing. It reads, "1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

2. In order for the Christian faithful to fulfill this obligation more easily, the available time runs from the evening of the vigil until the end of the Sunday or feast day.

3. The Christian faithful are strongly recommended to receive the Divine Eucharist on these days and indeed more frequently, even daily.

4. The Christian faithful should abstain from those labors or business matters which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's day, or to the proper relaxation of mind and body."

By parallel sources, citing CCEO canons 1499 and 1501 [CIC canons 17 and 19) we apply the Latin law (canon 1248) to understand that the fulfillment of one's Divine Liturgy obligation can only be celebrated in a Catholic celebration.

In addition, note that Eastern Catholics can only fulfill their Sunday obligation by celebrating the Divine Praises if the Eastern Catholic Church has permitted this according to their own Church sui iuris' particular law.

Also it is interesting to note that the 1967 Ecumenical Directory permitted Catholics to fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation by worshipping in an Orthodox Church. However, the 1993 Ecumenical Directory has no such privilege and John Huels, JCD, the preeminent expert in this area has said that the 1983 Code of Canon Law abrogated the privilege that Catholics used to be able to fulfill their Sunday Mass obligation by worshipping solely in an Orthodox Church which again was originally granted by the 1967 Ecumenical Directory.

Hope this helps.

Peace, Bob

Dear Michael,

It is not Peter that has spoken, but rather your Church Authority that has spoken.

I cannot in good conscience receive the Eucharist in a RCC, because it is not allowed by my 'Orthodox' 'authority'. To go against this authority, in spiritual matters, (although I may personally dissagree), would make me a 'spirit' of dissension.

I cannot assume the arrogance of knowing all the issues involved. If the position that the Orthodox have taken is wrong, (as I believe it is), then let it be on the conscience of those in authority, and whom I am succumbing to, not on mine.

Zenovia

Dear Neil,

I love 'that' word...and here I thought I was the only one that created new ones.

An Admirer,

Zenovia

Dear Mike,

Thanks for the reply.

I started to search back over previrous threads on this subject where some nuances of the Eastern Code were discussed, together with some phrases in both codes that are too elliptical to lend themselves to a black/white statement. Careful discernment of individuals and their spirtual advisors would appear to be required.

But I found that you had participated at least one of those threads. So you already know this.

djs

has anyone seen Jesus Christ? I have looked through these posts, and I can't seem to find Him anywheres. I participate in a secular forum consisting of some really interesting folks, and even when a word in season has to be said, it's not as remotely as vitriolic as I have seen here. I dare presume that my friends in the other forum would be astounded at these posts, some are of a faith community, some none at all. but they would be shocked. if anyone sees Jesus here, let me know.
Much Love,
Jonn

John, I think wherever there is LOVE/CHARITY toward another---there is CHRIST in the midst of that expression. I personally find that charity and kindness EVERYWHERE on this Forum...and especially when I see how quickly others extend themselves to others for their prayer requests...and their needs. Unless I'm misunderstanding your post correctly (and that's always a possibility---because I'm quite dense at times)...all you have to do to see Christ here is look beyond the responses to posts and there you will probably find kindness and love for others.

Now if you mean, you don't see Christ in the response of one patriarch to the pope---OK...I'll agree with that quite readily...but then I've long ago given up on most bishops and Church authorities (like Zenovia)...it seems that it's rare to find much there worth my time.

In His Holy Name,
+Fr. Gregory

Father, bless! Once again you are the champion of peace, charity and humility. May God continue to bless you abundantly.

Zenovia, I do very much respect your position of Communion. It is the sacrament of Unity, and a very visible and public sign of that ecclesial unity for all Eastern Christians.

All I can humbly say in return is that like some others here, several Orthodox priests have chosen to commune me at various times of my life after examination in which I have freely identified myself as a Catholic, and they have freely chosen to commune me uncoerced by myself.

They are the ministers at the Holy Altar, conduct the Unbloody Sacrifice, and they are the ones who must ultimately answer before the Dread and Just Judgement Seat.

Jonn, we, like all mankind, fall into passions including anger, which you will find everywhere man lives. We generally are, as we used to say in Oklahoma when I was growing up, good people. Let us all pray for everyone here and for Christian unity. Only God and His Holy Spirit will soften the hearts of men.

I agree wholeheartedly with Father Gregory.

There is much respect, charity and love on this forum!

If only there was this much in ALL Church leaders and not just SOME, who profess Christ but don't follow HIS teachings and His spirit.

We cannot judge however, for ultimately they will have to answer for their love and charity or lack of it...just as we will all have to answer for our particular sins.

So, in the meantime, I will continue hoping and praying for unity, because unity will be a sign to the world of Christian love, and I will keep on rejoicing and posting articles about those leaders who * do * "get it"....(to quote our beloved Bob/Theophan! )

In Christ,
Alice

Actually Canon 844.2 allows for a Catholic to receive the Sacraments of Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick from ministers of Eastern Churches having valid sacraments on any occasion of need or genuine spiritual benefit when access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally imposible.
I remember my moral theology professor in the Latin say that one does fulfill his obligation to attend Mass or Divine Liturgy, even when he goes to the Orthodox Church for any reason. Wedding of a friend, or other occassions.
Stephanos I