www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Roman or Latin Rite ?

Simple question, althought probably more suited on a Western forum, but I find that the members here are much more welcoming and knowledgeable about the West.

Are the terms Roman Rite and Latin Rite synonymous ?

Which statement is correct ?

Roman Catholic who practices the Latin Rite
Latin Catholic who practices the Roman Rite

Brad

Brad,
Simply put, there is no such "animal" as roman rite or roman catholic. Although extensively used it is a misnomer.
It should be Latin Catholic and Latin Rite.
Just like the term "Uniate" (Orthodox who are in Communion with Rome) it is inapproiate for these terms to be used.

Stephanos I

To use the word Roman would limit the Church to those ethnic Romans. I am not a Roman! I am a Norwegian. Get the point?
Its like a Spanish person calling me an Anglo, I find it terrible offensive for I am in NO way English.

Brad,

The Catholic Church recognizes only one juridic Western Church, the Latin Church and this is how the Code of Canon Law refers to it. However, the Latin Church has more than one Liturgical Rite the predominant one being the Roman Rite, with varying usages and again this is how the Church's documents refer to it. Also extant are the Ambrosian Rite and Mozarabic Rite which are part of the Latin Church and whose mother liturgical language is Latin. There is not one Latin Rite but several Latin Rites, of which the Roman Rite is predominant.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thanks for your responses.
I am well aware of the terms but wanted to be accurate when referring to myself as Latin Catholic.
I too am not a Roman, although the Romans came to Ireland and named it Hibernia who knows, they could have mixed into my Celtic ancestors.

Brad

Brad,

Just an aside. I think that if the term "Usage" had been applied in earlier times as it is now (i.e., the Anglican Usage), it would be the descriptor attached to the Ambrosian, Bragan, and Milanese "Rites", as well as to the rites of the various religious orders which have such privileges.

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

Liturgical scholars agree that the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites are distinct enough from the Roman, nor are they derived from it, to merit the term. The Religous Order's Uses and Anglican Use are derived from the Roman Rite or in the case of many if not all the Religious Orders were simply a more ancient form of the Roman Rite which they guarded from Gallican influence or later revisions. Also the offical books of the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites use the term rite. For example the current one volume Liturgy of the Hours text is called Diurna Laus, Salterio a Uso delle Comunit� di Rito Ambrosiano.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Excellent clarification of this issue Fr. Deacon Lance.

Daniel

Eastern Catholics on this Forum object to being called Byzantine Rite Catholics.

However, Roman Catholics (sorry Stephanos I, old habit of mine) don't seem to mind at all at being called Latin Rite Catholics.

Is the term "rite" excluded from Eastern theology?

Paul

Paul,

I don't object per se to being termed a "Byzantine Rite Catholic"; as a Melkite, I am such, together with my brothers and sisters of the other 13 Churches which use the Byzantine Rite. (My objection is to being termed a "Melkite Rite Catholic").

However, I find the term "Byzantine Rite Catholic" to be confusing in speech with others, since it fails to specify my Particular Church, which is where my liturgical identity lies. I suppose that there is also the risk of being confused with my Ruthenian brothers and sisters, given their use of the term to identify their own Particular Church (altho I can think of worse folks with whom to be confused).

It also bothers me that, when "Byzantine Rite Catholics" is used as a descriptor, uniformed listeners will tend to see it as synonymous with "Eastern Catholicity", ignoring the existence of our Oriental Catholic brothers and sisters. (Much as "Greek Orthodox" was long perceived as synonymous with "Eastern
Orthodoxy".)

Many years,

Neil

Paul, No offense to Stephanos either, but I have been a Roman Catholic most of my life and until I came on this forum I was never referred to as a Latin Rite Catholic. Actually if Roman Catholics(not on this forum) refer to themselves as Latin Rite Catholics within my hearing it is news to me. Most of them, however, simply say, "Catholic." Nor was I referred to as a Latin rite Catholic in the Byzantine Church we attended in another city for a year. We were referred to as Roman Catholics by the people there at first.

Roman Catholics no longer use Latin in their liturgy - at least most churches and none I have attended in years and years since the liturgical changes. In some parishes there are occasionally hymns yet in Latin sometimes in some parishes. So why should Roman Catholics be referred to as Latin rite Catholics unless it is because they used to use Latin in the liturgy?

Now I am a Roman Catholic who is trying to become part of a Byzantine Catholic congregation.
I won't object to being called a Latin Rite Catholic on this forum - but it seems outdated and unfamiliar to me.

A Rose by any other name....

In Christ and the Theotokos,

Mary Jo

Well Mary Jo, just think in these terms, would someone or should someone call, a Slavic Orthodox person a Greek Orthodox, or in the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome call them Greek Catholics, definitely not.
Better to just say Catholic, or Latin Catholic, certainly not Roman.
Do you actually know where the term "Roman" Catholic came from? It was an insult by non catholics.
Stephanos I

Like I said, no offense to you honorable priest of God. I am just telling it like it is not like you may think it is supposed to be. And I did say I do NOT object to what I may be called. I apologize if you think that meant any kind of disrespect for any ethnic group.

My dad was called Irish Catholic and my mother was called German Catholic because that was their ethnic background. Mainly though we were just Catholics. I am a former history professor of Ancient History and I do know what the context of the word Roman originally meant. I also know it comes from Rome, the city where Peter and Paul died, and where my present Pope resides. It seems to me it was even called the "Holy City."

That said,
do Greek Orthodox object to be called Byzantine Orthodox ?
I think the term Irish Catholic is more common than we think, especially to this day in Belfast. I recall watching a documentary on the Irish Catholics and their voyage to America and how they were treated worse than African slaves.
It was not uncommon to read in a job posting, WIC (White Irish Catholics) need not apply.

sorry to go off topic.

Brad

Even though Roman Catholic was originally coined by Anglicans as a term of derision it is not inaccurate if used of Roman Rite Latin Catholics, and is de facto the everyday name every Latin Catholic I now uses. The term is in fact analagous to the term Byzantine Catholic which describes not nationality but ritual tradition. Latin Catholic Church is accurate because that is the Western Church's juridic name. One must simply rememeber that every Wetsern Catholic is a Latin Catholic but not every Latin Catholic is a Roman Catholic.

Deacon Lance,

If you were to spend any time on a Catholic forum primarily populated by Western Catholics, you would soon learn that they are fairly unanimous in rejecting the term "Roman" Catholic as descriptive of them. The preference varies between "Catholic" and "Latin Catholic". I feel sure that those of my fellow members here who also post on the CA forum will attest to having observed that as well. Frankly, I was surprised at how widespread and vehement that feeling is among Western Catholics.

Many years,

Neil