www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Alex,

And you are a subject of jealosy for me because you took my registration name.

OrthodoxyorDeath,
I know my"handle" is a little on the long side but I chose it as I am Her slave of love. May I ask you, in all humilty, to address me as Angela [ and I have heard all the jokes that can be made about that name ] or shorten my Handle to "the slave of love" as I am only too well aware that I need Her help to lead me to Her Son

May Our Blessed Lady, Mother of us all, my Mistress keep us in Her care and lead us to Her Most Wonderful Son

Angela

[ 01-24-2002: Message edited by: Our Lady's slave of love ]

Maximus,
I would like to comment on what you said:

"The Latin Church position as to the salvation of good Hidues, Muslims, Buddhist, and so on is in total keeping with the tradition of the early Church. The Church has always understood salvation possible for all men of truely good will and virtue."

You my friend are no different that Alex when it comes to relativism. Tell us what is keeping in Tradition or traditon of the early Church in regards to non-Christians?
Salvation as any truthful Christian knows is in Christ alone. To insinuate that the Hindos, Muslims, and Budhists are keeping in line with our Tradition is a diservice to Christ and the Church. Salvation is possible for all mankind only in Christ. This does not mean that mankind cannot repent and accept Christ on the earth. This also does not mean we have ultimately judged their salvation. There is always the opportunity to embrace the true Christian Faith. This also does not mean we are condemning non-Christians to everlasting Hell. I believe people create their own hells. Hell being the absence of God in Christ. People are living in hell. We as true Christians, I pray & hope, are not distancing anyone from the nearness of Christ. There is no falsehood in declaring that Christians & non-Christians may be living in their own hell. They may not even know Christ but God in some mysterious way may intervene in their lives. We may also intervene in others lives by the Holy Spirit. It is not the goal of the Church to have people remain in the dungeon of their hell. We are commanded to love our enemies in return that they may unconditionally love in Christ. That even means speaking the Christian truths. We don't have to force anything down anyone's throat. We do not have to play politically correct games. The Saints & the Martyrs did not.
Many times we as Christians live in hell. If not, then why the need for repentance, forgiveness and communion? As for the non-Christians they may understand partially our beliefs but lack the fullness of our truths. Being truly of good will and of sound virtue does not lead to salvation in Christ. We have moral atheists and humanists.

Sad to say, but I believe the Latin Church has let her guards down to relativism. I have seen this in the bahavior of the Pope, bishops and laity. You don't venerate lies by kissing of the Quran nor should you committ your flock to fast one day of Ramadan. Nowadays, I hear, see, and meet former Roman Catholics becoming Muslims. There is no salvation in Islam, Hinduism and Budhaism. They lack and deny Christ. Can they be saved in Christ? Sure. Are they in hell? Obviously. Do I want them to remain there? Absolutley not. Dialogues are sometimes useful and not so useful. I believe in the monologue of Christ and the Church in sharing & expressing our faith. There are no compromises in what we already know or believe. Most importantly is that we adhere to our theosis to make the greatest impact. Dialogues don't do that.

OrthodoxyOrDeath,

According to author H.W. Crocker III, Justin Martyr - a pagan Stoic philosopher by training - taught that Chrisitianity was a natural religion and that pagans such as Socrates would then and should then be considered Christians. Of course this has to do with Socrates time on earth being spent before Christ... but this concept (indeed truth if it is indeed truth) is depended also on good will and virtue.

I submit to you that of all things Christian, that is the Mass or Divine Liturgy aside, one could just spend all his days working to master the 4 cardinal virtues... and he will have his hands full doing Christian work.

I am presently reading Marcus Aurelius "Meditations". And from reading this mans thoughts, ponderings, from getting a glimpse into the soul of this man, I can not one second believe this man was so far away from God that salvation was beyond him.

I notice you equate the Latin Church holding Islam and Hindue in high esteem with the Latin Church, the Pope, surrendering it's authority and mission by Christ on earth to all other's presumably even to your Orthodox Church. Yet I'm sure on another thread you will be ranting the Latin Church and it's Pope demands all sumbit it's institution and mission from Christ. Please make up your mind as to which reason it is you hate the Latin Church and Bishop of Rome.

OrthodoxyOrDeath, I personaly admire a number of things about the Hindue and Muslim faith. And to be honest out of the 5 great religions, Islam I have more of a problem with, but even with that I would rather discuss theological issues with a Muslim the with a typical Protestant. Now here's something to give you a heart attack - I am very fond of Buddhism. Infact I think Christianity has more incommon with Buddhism - theological - then with Islam, and perhaps in some ways more then Judism.

If you listen to the tone and direction of your posts on this topic, you might find you sound much like a Protestant - virtue, good will, good works, the proper intent of the heart, will not save you, but only public shouting of "I believe in Jesus" will save you. I don't recall Christ condemning that Roman Guard that came to him, but rather he blessed him - not so much so in that the Roman Guard recognized eternal salvation in Christ as the Son of God, but rather because of the virute that moved the Roman soldiers heart, and because the Roman soldier because of his viture and goodness was wise enough to recognize God working in Jesus if not purely God in Jesus.

Dear Rum,

I am sorry you consider me to be a relativist. I don't think I am.

Neither does my Father Confessor, Bishop or Patriarch.

Or it could be that we're all relativists and only you are in the Truth.

Please forgive me, but I really have no wish to correspond further with such an offensive person as yourself.

There are many other intelligent and spiritual Orthodox Christians to correspond with on this Forum.

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Would you like "Orthodox Catholic?"

I suppose we could trade . . .

But really, if you would like it, I would gladly let you have it, Friend!

Alex

Dear Alex,
Take it easy. I have read dozens of our posts. They have led me to believe that. Being in union with Rome is enough to convince of that as well. I still like you Alex. You have nice day now.

Dear Rum,

Then please forgive me a sinner, Rum.

I like you, too, and was wondering if your regard for me as a relativist meant that you hated me.

Let's put our disagreements over Abdur behind us and start a new slate, shall we?

I am closer to Orthodoxy than ever.

And it was my mother who always taught me to regard myself as an ethnic "Rum."

You've twigged my interest and I'll study up on the whole subject.

Forgive me, once again.

Alex

Alex,

On the list of the passions, jealousy is right up there; so let this just be a trial for me.


Maximus,

Have you ever heard the phrase: “you are what you eat?”, well, your mind is likewise what it eats. I would encourage you to stop reading all of these “pagan Stoic philosopher's” and drink from the pure fountains of the Church.

I have been spending time reading the Philokalia, a book which the Orthodox consider only exceeded in importance by the Bible. In fact, elsewhere I said, if one wants to understand Christianity they should read the NT before the OT. I'll go one step further, if one wants to understand Christianity, they should read the Philokalia, then the NT, then the OT.

As far as me sounding like a Protestant, for one to write such things means that he must be ignorant of both Protestantism and Orthodoxy. At no time have I said “Just believe in Jesus”, on the contrary, I have been saying that all should recognize the authority and perfection of the Church, and that She alone is the Ark of Salvation. Protestantism on the other hand is a refusal to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit illumines and guides the Church and that there are multiple “paths” to salvation and that the Church is a fuzzy pluralistic collection of people living virtuous lives and erroneous doctrine. Which is what you are promoting.

Just because one believes in Orthodox doctrine does not save him, and I'm not sure how you figure I have stated so. I am struggling each day for perfection and I have a terrible fight everyday. As St. Nicodemos says, those who withdraw to the desert are fighting the war from trenches, those who live in the world are doing hand-to-hand combat.

Rum
Orthodox,

I think you have been drinking to much rum.

Church tradition are teachings recieved oraly down from the time of the Apostles. That does not mean I would be the one who is the guru of tradition but it does mean that there certainly are a number of Bishops who would understand "tradition" better then I. And what has come out of Rome as far as I am concerned regarding this topic is not unChristian nor a threat to the Catholic Church, therefore I recieve my orders as an obedient soldier.

Rum, could it be one tries to be to mystical? The fact is regarding this hell of yours, I would rather be a sober man of Marcus Aurelius time full of virtue, kingly, and a soldier. Do my time in that hell -as you call it- then be in total communion with your Orthodox Church and in the heaven of a slobering drunkeness and mind going mad.

The truth is Gandhi was a good man. The truth is Salladin was a good man. Both these men I'm afraid often held a purer heart then mine, they were men of good intent and virtue. I'm quite confident they both are in Heaven with our Lord. Does this take away from our Lord - no. Have greater confidence in Christ then to think that His allowing good men, who served other faiths then the faith of His Apostles, into union with Him in heaven as we call it, some how takes away from the truth of Christ's Lordship.

Rum, the Bible is not above the Church. It is the men in the Church, the people of God, who are more important. The Bible as a theological document must be taken as a whole. Not just in bits.

Angela, I think that is a nice name.

May her Son lead us to salvation through a life in Him and Him in us.

Dear Maximus,

Please leave my dear friend, Rum Orthodox, alone!


God bless you, Confessor of the Faith,

Alex

Dear OrthodoxyorDeath,

Yes, I agree!

The Philokalia is such a wonderful well-spring of spirituality that one may drink and drink of it and always want (and need) more.

And you are also more than correct that it truly does help one delve into the New Testament much more deeply.

I keep my prayer rope with me always and the Philokalia has taught me that anytime is the right time for the Prayer or Epiclesis of Jesus Christ!

Alex

There was a woman who had to face an unexpected pregnancy, which she told no body about. She was a silly sort of woman, and didn't know what to do, so she said "I'm gonna ask Rum Orthodox what his opinion of the New York Knicks is. If he says that they're playing horrible basketball these days, I'm gonna have an abortion." She asks, you say the Knicks are horrible, and she has the abortion. Are you guilty of the murder of that innocent child?

I would think you'd answer that you weren't responsible, as you clearly wouldn't be in this situation. Nevertheless someone could say that you were guilty, since what you said caused her to get an abortion. But again, you were ignorant of any of this, so it truly wasn't your problem.

Pardon the crude example (though the Knicks are indeed playing horribly...that much is true ), but I think the same principles are involved. How can we believe in a God of Mercy, who wishes not the condemnation of an individual, but his salvation, and then say that that very same God of Mercy would condemn an individual who knew not of God and Christ, but believed in and followed his own religion and its god faithfully? What of the many people out there, even in my native India, who haven't heard the message of Christ, but continue to live devout Hindu lives? I don't believe God would not save them. Mind you, this doesn't take away the responsibility to evangelise and preach the Gospel, but I doubt we'll reach literally everybody before someone dies...

Per my understanding, the Latin Church doesn't say that other religions can save, but that those who follow other religions faithfully according to their conscience, in invincible ignorance of Christ and the Gospel, are saved by Christ. The key is that all people who are saved are saved by Christ, whether they know it or not.

So if the pious, righteous Hindu knew of Christ, heard the Gospel, and understood the necessity of Christ, and still rejected Him, you might have a case. But if he never heard the message, I don't see how He could condemn the good man, who did as much right as he knew to do. Who and what are we that we can put limits on what God can and can't do?

Perhaps it's a failure of you and me that they don't know. I'm not sure of your ethnicity (for some reason, Arab/Middle Eastern screams out at me), but I'm sure wherever you're from there are those who do not believe, just as in my native India, there are those who do not believe. Many of these, have not even heard the message that they might believe. If you and I are so quick to condemn those who haven't heard the Gospel, perhaps we should put our money where our mouths are, and leave our comfortable American lives, and preach the Gospel to all of those people, out of love for them, and zeal for their salvation in Christ?

You don't venerate lies by kissing of the Quran nor should you committ your flock to fast one day of Ramadan.

OK, I'll give you the Qu'ran kissing thing, I'm not too keen on that...

First off, the Pope asked that everyone fast that day in December...Friday, the fourteenth. You seem pretty ambitious to point out that this was during Ramadan, but you conveniently ignore the fact that this was also a Friday (traditionally a day of fasting anyway), and a Friday in Advent, a penitential season in the Latin Church. They weren't bound to fast that day, since their law doesn't require it...the Pope didn't command the fast, he asked that people participate in it, but didn't bind anyone to it. But firstly, a Friday in Advent is as good a day to fast as any...but to choose that particular day to fast, and to fast alongside Muslims who are celebrating their own penitential season, I thought, was appropriate with all that was/is going on. But why are you so intent to say that the Latins were promoting Islam or whatever? I don't recall any Orthodox leaders condemning the idea, but perhaps I'm not in the know, and you are...please let me know.

Nowadays, I hear, see, and meet former Roman Catholics becoming Muslims.

And there are no Orthodox whatsoever who become Muslim? I've met one myself, and she was pretty well steeped in the Orthodox tradition...and she didn't convert because of marriage or anything...purely out of belief.

There is no salvation in...Hinduism. They lack and deny Christ.

I don't know so much about the others, but as far as Hindus go, I think they recognise all religions to be pathways to God, and so I know Hindus who have gone to pray in mosques (how that happened, I don't know), and Hindus who include in their puja rooms pictures or icons of Jesus and Mary, whom they pray to. You'd be hard pressed to find Hindus who flat out deny Christ the way Muslims might deny Him, or Jews for that matter. At least as far as my experience goes, and in my country, you come across quite a number of Hindus...

Mor Ephrem,

I realize you addressed your post to Rum O but if I may, I'll make it very short.

People are not as hopelessy lost as you make them out to be. Look at how many people can give you the stats on how many moals the New York Knicks center has on his rear end but if asked about the Ressurection he would think you were talking about a horror movie.

People are motivated by their passions so let our only passion be Christ.

And again, I don't think anyone has condemned anyone.

Thanks.