www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Dear R.O.,

I think you and I will get along just fine...

Please note that the fast took place on Dec. 14 not Sept. 11.

True, but things happened so fast that day, I don't think anyone was really thinking as much as they were absorbing and reacting. I know here in New York I wasn't...

I know that fasting is a great spiritual tool. Perhaps, the Latins may incorporate, instill, and adhere to fasting with the Orthodox.

I couldn't agree with you more!

But allow me to say something in defence of Islam. Mind you, I believe what you believe about it, though probably without as much feeling and gusto as yourself. But I can see how people dissatisfied with what they perceive to be Christianity, Eastern or Western, would embrace Islam.

I know of one person who a few years ago, when Christianity "didn't really do much" for him, read up on Islam and actually thought for a little bit of becoming a Muslim, because of the example of their faithfulness to prayer and to Allah...it was the kind of stuff he was looking for.

But he was saved from that, and came to a renewed Christian fervour, and fell in love with Christ and the Gospel all over again, and found EVERYTHING he was looking for, through the prayers of the Mother of God. And now he can't fathom being anything other than an Eastern Christian.

That person was me.

And regarding the dancing of the Sufis, I remember learning about it in a world religions class, and the prof said that when someone criticised them for dancing when they should've been praying, their leader said "we are praying". I liked that answer...made me wanna dance!

Mor Ephrem,
I am glad you are the Christian you are, al-Hamdillah. I have been studing Islam for over 12 years. This became a passionate study of mine at a time when I was not in the Church. The lies propagated by Islamic apologists drove me crazy. I became anti-Islamic but not anti-Muslim. I then immersed myself in apologetics, history, and language. Believe it or not, I discovered the history of the Arab Christians and that of Orthodoxy. I was intrigued by Orthodoxy and then my journey began. Today, I am full- blooded "savage" Orthodox immersed in the foolish love of Christ. Did you hear that world?! Where's me rum! lol

Greetings to my brother Alex. I cant wait for my vacation next month to Cancun, Mexico. There I will be drinking my Corona beers, no rum man.

Thanks, Rum Orthodox! I'm glad you're the savage you are, and that I'm the lightweight who's hopefully gaining here and there...

Just curious...what does "al-Hamdillah" mean? "By the grace of God"?

Mor Ephrem,
al-Hamdillah means Praise Be To God
or if you like
al-Hamdil-Maseeh= Praise Be To Christ

Na'mit Allah means Grace of God
Rahmit Allah means Mercy of God

This list can go on & on & on...

Dear All,

It is true that, for the most part, the laws of the Latin church regarding days of abstinence and fasting have changed. There are, though, still days on which we are directed by our church law to abstain from meat and to fast in the traditional way.

That being said, no one has told Latin Catholics that they may not abstain or fast. Many of us still use abstinence and fasting as a form of self discipline and penance. Certainly not all do, but significant numbers do.

In fact, at the time that the law was changed, Latin Catholics were encouraged to fast and abstain in the traditional way. In the churches where I worship, we still are encouraged to do so.

But we were challenged to take up our personal responsibility to determine what we need to do to in regard to discipline, and penance and spiritual growth. For example, for cyber folk, practicing care in what we say about one another is a constant form of discipline that can be intensified during Advent and Lent.

I'd like to think that what is happening is that people in the Western Church are taking up the challenge.

Steve
JOY!

Rob, Mor Ephrem is a Thomist Syriani (Malankar).

Ghasbin 'an rasso, bid'do yit'allam il 'arabi.

Mor, I suggest a strict regime of Arabic studies. Knowing Syriani (a Semitic tongue), it would be a shame if you don't study the other languages of that family.

You may go ahead and Syrianize this Syrian anytime. Feel free to instuct me in Indian, if you want.

I highly suggest you visit the village of Ma'looulah in Syria. The people speak Aramaic (Palestinian dialect), but that will soon be gone by the next generation.

In IC XC
Samer

Believe it or not, Samer, I actually have one of those books that you're supposed to work through and teach yourself Arabic...the only thing I'm afraid of is the alphabet...I hope I'd be able to read it...others can, I know, I just hope I can figure it out. I've wanted to travel in the Middle East for some time now, so I figured I should learn.

Unfortunately, I don't "know" Syriac, I just know a few prayers, and some other minor things. The languages I want to learn now are quite a few -- I want to improve my Malayalam and Spanish (can't be in New York City without some proficiency ), and also learn Syriac, Italian, Arabic, and Hindi. Hopefully, I'll have time to refresh the first two, and also learn the other four.

Unfortunately, college hasn't cooperated. But with my almost settled schedule and three months of vacation after it, I hope to get the books I need and get to work. If I'm successful at Arabic (insha Allah...I think...my uncle worked in Kuwait and Oman for years, I picked it up from him...I'm trying to say God willing, just in case I butchered that one up ), I shall use it every so often here...I look forward to it.

Thought this might be of use...

WEST CAN LEARN FROM THE EAST ABOUT ISLAM, SAYS PATRIARCH

Bartholomew I Reflects on Implications of Sept. 11

ROME, (ZENIT.org-Avvenire).- Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople was one of the first to respond enthusiastically to the papal invitation to participate in a Day of Prayer at Assisi.

The 62-year-old, considered "first among equals" among the various patriarchs, has been the spiritual leader of 270 million Orthodox for the past 11 years.

Bartholomew I never loses an opportunity to dialogue with other Christian Churches, especially the Catholic Church. "The Pope and I are good friends," he often says.

Q: Holiness, what were the reasons that impelled you to come to Assisi?

Bartholomew I: As first bishop of the Orthodox Church, primate of the ecumenical throne, I joyfully responded to the fraternal invitation of John Paul II, the Pope of Rome, in harmony with the most urgent imperative of our era: All those who respect God and love man must be ready to give their own testimony in favor of peace and to struggle together to obtain it.

On our part, we started on this path a long time ago. We regard it as our duty and carry it out with pleasure also here, in Assisi, where we wish to witness to the faith and hope of the Orthodox Church.

Q: Following Sept. 11, there is a risk of a clash of civilizations in which religion becomes a reason for conflict. How can such a scenario be avoided?

Bartholomew I: If you look carefully, there is nothing new. The debate on the clash of civilizations has lasted for years. Sept. 11 has tragically highlighted it, with the horrible claim of linking terrorism to a religious faith.

In order to struggle against such aberrations, we must journey together on the path of fraternal coexistence, love and peace. However this, in turn, calls for a real change in mentality, breaking with concepts and practices of the past. Above all it calls for repentance and forgiveness.

Q: Dialogue with Islam is being discussed. How can it begin?

Bartholomew I: Today the interreligious dialogue is more necessary than ever. The situation created after Sept. 11 should urge us to a dialogue with Islam that is founded on responsibility, sincerity and reciprocal respect. These are essential conditions for dialogue.

Q: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople is on Islamic soil today. From this experience, what suggestions do you think you can give Christians of the West who are faced with the presence of Muslim faithful?

Bartholomew I: You Westerners give the impression of having been taken by surprise by the Muslim presence, and you often react in a confused and spasmodic way. We in the Ecumenical Patriarchate, on the contrary, and more generally we Christians of the East, have a long experience.

We have coexisted with Islam, uninterruptedly, since its birth. Coexistence has not always and everywhere been peaceful -- not even today. Despite all this we can say that it was and is coexistence.

Since the times of the Byzantine Empire, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has sought a theological dialogue with Islam. However, there is also the existential dialogue that is exercised in daily coexistence among men of different beliefs. I think the West could learn something on the topic of dialogue and interreligious coexistence by looking at the experience of the East.

Q: What is your judgment on the war against terrorism launched after the attacks on the United States?

Bartholomew I: Terrorism and war, in any form and for any reason, are always a tragedy. The evil that was unleashed on Sept. 11 can cause an infinite sequence of other evils. However, we Christians know that evil is not defeated by evil.

Q: What are you referring to?

Bartholomew I: I refer above all to the inability to prevent the tragedy. Perhaps not everything possible was done. Also, the diagnosis and therapy adopted do not address the roots of the evil, the causes that have favored terrorism. Such omissions will not be forgiven in the future.

Q: Can the Assisi meeting relaunch the interreligious dialogue, especially between Christianity, Judaism and Islam?

Bartholomew I: This is the great hope. We hope that the Day of Prayer for Peace will renew the will to cooperate among all those who participate.

Q: What point has the ecumenical dialogue reached? Have John Paul II�s visits to Greece and Ukraine marked a step forward?

Bartholomew I: The ecumenical path, which has borne much fruit, has not yet been able to manifest the unity of Christians in a strong and visible way, so that it is also recognized by the world. This is also true of the dialogue between Orthodox and Roman Catholics.

There is need to renew the ecumenical thrust. From this perspective, John Paul II�s trips are certainly a great testimony to the desire for unity.

(He's only 62?! Quite young for an Ecumenical Patriarch... )

Samer, I can't believe I didn't catch this one the first time...I'm not a Thomist...I haven't read much Aquinas! :p

It is no surprise that Bartholomew would say: "All those who respect God and love man..."

He, the self-proclaimed "leader" of the worlds Orthodox.

Mor, I spotted that play on words when I first wrote the phrase. I did wonder whether you'd put your finger on it. Not intentional of course. Let's resurrect the original meaning of a Thomist, shall we?

In IC XC
Samer

Hella ya habeeb Allah,
Inshallah mubsuit. Whan ya akhi? Goli, kaf beduk tujbarro ala rasso yit'alim arabi? Towill ruhuk alay. lol

bil-Maseeh,
Akhuk il-Rumi

It is some what striking that coexistence with Islam need be mentioned even stressed. I've never heard the need of mentioning Christianity's coexistence with Buddhism? And for all history of bad blood with Christians to Jew relations - at least on the Protestant and Latin Catholic side of the house - have Jewish terror groups flown planes into American towers? Or Jewish gunmen taken over planes in France? Oh well I suppose we need another book about a Hitlers Pope... Or perhaps we can get a Talibans Pope book out in the near future? No better yet something on how the Kinghts of Colombus or the Knights of Malta have worked with the Vatican to secretly stop Afgans from flying kites, thus leading to Islamic terror groups planing to strike the twin towers.

****************

Not to try and take advantage of New Yorks tragedy and sorrow rage against the disrespect of the Virgin Mother in art. But has anyone else took notice that New York had not only the planes fly into the two towers, but also another plane about a week or two after that crash into a New York neighborhood that had already took many losses in the World Trade Center. Of course other planes landed else where on 9-11 but then again it wasn't Chicago's Sears Tower a major building in a major city too. It is some what puzzeling (if that's a good word) that New York had two seperate art gallerey exhibitions (funded by public money) not long before 9-11 displaying the Virgin Mary in the most negative light... with raves from much of the New Yorkers and with many of them standing in long line to see the art. Mrs. Clinton came out to back up one of the shows after the Mayor of New York condemned the exibition. On the other hand... Muslims - for all our disagreement - would never disrespect the Virgin Mary in art shows such as was done in New York.

Feel free to beat me up for putting the two together in that... light... and perhaps I am wrong for doing so... but... it makes you wonder?

Interesting thoughts, Max, but as a proud New Yorker, I will now beat you up. :p

When the "art" exhibits came out, to say I wasn't thrilled would be an understatement. I was livid. My friends who could respect my faith and respect the beliefs of others were also not too pleased. But most of my friends are the agnostic/atheist/hedonist/live your life the way you want, damn the consequences type, and so they'd always meet my disgust over this depiction of our Mother with the usual "Have you seen it? It looks different in person. It is beautiful."

I'm not a fan of modern art in general, but I wouldn't have called even this exhibit modern art, but modern filth. Nevertheless, I didn't buy the "it's beautiful in person" notion, and I just kept criticising away, while my art-connosseur friends just kept loving it. And I'm sure there were many others like them in the City, who rail against God and anything related to Him, for the reason which I wrote about in another thread. And it is surely enough to make God an angry Guy.

I remember once when someone in my family severely insulted my mother, and she came back home crying. I was so furious, burning with rage, and I was gonna immediately forget the fact that it was Holy Week, and that I was trying to keep to that spirit, I was gonna forget all the polite stuff, and I was gonna drive down there, and let them have it royally.

It was my mother who stopped me. Even in her pain, she wanted to spare them that, that much did she love them.

So it is, I think, with the Mother of God. I'm sure she was upset by the whole thing too...if someone painted an ugly picture of you and smeared it with crap, you would be angry. But even if her Son decided that He wasn't gonna let His Mother's honour be violated that way, and was gonna punish them for it in such a grievous way, I'm sure she would've stayed His Hand and said "No, please don't."

The Towers surely had many evil people in it. But there were also many good people. People who were just trying to live and work honestly, people who prayed, daily communicants, and others.

"'Lord, say there were ten good men in the city...would you save the whole city for the sake of the ten?' 'Yes, I will save it for the sake of the ten.'" (paraphrased)

Let's give credit where credit is due. Sure, New York can be an evil place. But any place in the world can be evil too. Just because Chicago and other "Middle West" cities were spared the violence of 11 September but New York wasn't doesn't mean that New York is particularly being punished. Chicago, along with New York and the rest of this country has dozens of abortion mills...does not the murder of so many innocents daily cry unto God for vengeance? And yet God has spared most of us from such calamities, and even prospered us, although this crime alone is enough to merit our end.

The terrorists were going after the Great Satan with all the force they could muster. They chose a known target for their intrigues. There aren't as many people in the world who know Chicago as there are people who know New York. New York is known almost universally, at least in my experience. They wanted to send a message with a global reach, and they did it.

I know a few people in my parish who made it out with their lives. My cousin was one of them. These are all good people. I have friends who live in Manhattan, going to school. They may not have been next to the Towers, but they felt the pain, fear, anguish, etc. One of them was my girlfriend. These friends of mine are also good people. So I hesitate to imply that God is punishing New York for its insults of His Mother. He has good reason to, but somehow I can't stomach that He would do that, if not for the many instances of His Mercy in the past, then because of the intercession of His Mother, who surely wouldn't want it to happen that way.

And before I finish, I will tell you that on the news they once showed an Afghan kid with a picture of the Sears Tower in Chicago saying "This one's mine!" or something to that effect. It would be stupidity to think that this sort of thing can never happen again...on the contrary, the kid might grow up and actually make that building his. God spare us from that day, but if it does happen, I for one won't be pointing fingers, but will be lifting up hands in prayer and also in any way I can to help the relief efforts.

And don't get me started about our beloved Senator Clinton...

You've got a deal, Samer...the original meaning of Thomist is now resurrected. I am a Thomist!