www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Dear Catholicos,

As always, your posts are greatly appreciated for their wit, wisdom and awesomeness in general!

I read that the main Islamic advisor to President George Bush (has he recovered from that pretzel accident?)is, in fact, a former Greek Orthodox Christian who was destined for the Priesthood!

He was in a car accident and said it was then that he saw the light . . .

I understand that Hinduism does indeed accept Jesus as the 9th incarnation of one of their gods. Others venerate him as "St Isa" etc.

Even the Roman Emperor Alexander Severus included a statue of Christ among his Roman gods - I guess he was hedging his spiritual bets.

I know this since this is the Emperor under which my wife's patron saint suffered martyrdom.

She tells me that she is a modern Tatiana suffering under a modern Alexander. . .

Alex

Saladin?

Salah ad-Din: Muslim theologian and warrior.



Arabic Salah ad-Din, 1137?�1193,

Muslim warrior and Ayyubid sultan of Egypt, the great opponent of the Crusaders, b. Mesopotamia, of Kurdish descent. He lived for 10 years in Damascus at the court of Nur ad-Din, where he distinguished himself by his interest in Sunni theology. He accompanied his uncle, Shirkuh (or Shirkoh), a lieutenant of Nur ad-Din, on campaigns (1164, 1167, 1168) against the Fatimid rulers of Egypt. Shirkuh became vizier there and on his death (1169) was succeeded by Saladin. Saladin later caused the name of the Shiite Fatimid caliph to be dropped from the Friday prayer, thus deposing him. After the death of Nur ad-Din, who was planning to campaign against his too-powerful subordinate, Saladin proclaimed himself sultan of Egypt, thus beginning the Ayyubid dynasty. He spread his conquests westward on the northern shores of Africa as far as Qabis and also conquered Yemen. He took over Damascus after Nur ad-Din's death and undertook to subdue all Syria and Palestine. He had already come into conflict with the Crusaders (see Crusades), and he put the rulers of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem (see Jerusalem, Latin Kingdom of) on the steadily weakening defensive. He was unsuccessful in his efforts to conquer the Assassins in their mountain strongholds, but he took Mosul, Aleppo, and wide areas from rival Muslim rulers and became the principal warrior of Islam. Gathering a large force of Muslims of various groups�but all called Saracens by the Christians�he set out to attack the Christians. Raymond of Tripoli was at first his ally, but then joined the other Crusaders, and the great battle of Hattin (near Tiberias) in 1187 found Christians matched against Muslims. Saladin won brilliantly, capturing Guy of Lusignan and Reginald of Ch�tillon. The city of Jerusalem also fell to him. The Third Crusade was gathered (1189) and came to the Holy Land to try to recover the Holy City. Thus it was that Richard I of England and Saladin met in the conflict that was to be celebrated in later chivalric romance. The reputation that Saladin had among the Christians for his generosity and chivalry does not seem to have been a legend, and there seems no doubt that Saladin admired Richard as a worthy opponent. The Crusaders, however, failed in their purpose and succeeded only in capturing Akko. In 1192, Saladin came to agreement with the Crusaders upon the Peace of Ramla, which left the Latin Kingdom only a strip along the coast from Tyre to Yafo. The Christians were never to recover from their defeat.�

Dear OorD,

Look at how many people, including Christians of all sorts, "preach" the Knicks, versus their preaching of the Resurrection.

The Knicks people are more effective in sending their message out than we often are, even though we have a message more precious than gold. Perhaps we should work on that...

God bless, and Amen re: our only passion being Christ!

Salah al-Din "The Righteousness of the Faith."

Saladin was the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty which ruled Egypt from 1171-1250 A.D. (567-647 H).


Saladin was born in 532 H in the Kurdish village near Takrit. He was brought up on piety and courage, and was distinguished by his intelligence and discretion. Saladin started his rule of Egypt by confining himself more than anyone else to an austerity plan. He refrained from all the luxuries of life in order to set an example to his companions, in confronting the dangers jeopardizing the state. He exerted his utmost to establish a strong state that had full power to liberate all the Arab territories from foreign invasion of the Crusaders.


His Principles:

Righteousness and Peace:


Fighting for peace and justice were his principles and in leading armies was an example of wisdom, flexibility, cunning and self-denial


. Despite his strength and self-restraint in the battlefield, he treated his enemies kindly.
When he conquered Jerusalem, he ordered his soldiers not to harm any of the Crusaders and released all the elderly people.


Saladin's tolerance and justice:


He was a man of charity. Despite his successive glories and victories, he had no real interest in money, as he bequeathed all his money to the poor. and the needy.


His doors were wide open for all people to submit their complaints and petitions.


A Charismatic Figure:


He won the love of all Egyptians. He canceled many taxes imposed by the Fatimids. During his reign, both Muslims and Christians enjoyed unprecedented religious freedom. Egyptian Copts and Christians had his pictures hung on the walls of their churches.

Domestic Achievements:

Saladin and the Ayyubid Dynasty are celebrated in the history of Islamic civilisation as well as the entire world not only for their outstanding military success against the Crusaders, but also for the remarkable diplomacy as peace advocates.


The impact of the Ayyubid Dynasty on Islamic culture is another important factor worthy of credit. This is substantiated in the great schools he founded. The educational significance of each was on a par with modern colleges.


The most well-known of these schools are the First E1 Nassirea School, built near Amr Ibn E1 Aas Mosque and was confined to teaching the Shafaeya doctrines of Islamic jurisprudence, the Second Nassirea School, built near E1 Imam El-Shafai area, the El-Kamhiya School for teaching the Malikeya doctrines of Islamic jurisprudence and E1 Sioufia School for teaching Hanifya jurisprudence doctrines.

Saladin extended the Fatimid walls of Cairo to encircle old Egyptian capitals: (E1 Kataa'e, E1 Askar and E1 Fostat).

He constructed a citadel on the western side of E1 Moqattam Hill to overlook the old Egyptian Islamic capitals. Construction began in 1176 and was completed after his death by his successors E1 Adel and E1 Kamel.

He inaugurated a general hospital in 1182 free of charge.

Quite a big number of cities for serving military purposes are attributed to the Ayyubid Dynasty (E1 Adelya City south of Damietta, E1 Mansoura and Salihya).

Sculpture flourished during the Ayyubid Dynasty especially stone and gypsum carvings in domes, windows and minarets. Samples of which are displayed at the Islamic Museum.
Woolen, cotton and flaxen textile industries also thrived.


The Ayyubid Dynasty influenced Arab literature, which developed into exuberant forms.
The creativity of literary men who deserted palaces to the public arena was most conspicuous.

Saladin allowed the performance of the phantasmagoria (a visual art taken after the Fatimid Dynasty) before the public. It was previously confined to the palaces of the wealthy.

Saladin set up a citadel in Pharaoh's Island at the Citadel Bay and another at Ras E1 Gondi at E1 Barouk Valley near E1 Arish Valley in Sinai.

Abdur,

Good to see you again

I suppose we start again on a little more peaceful grounds now.

Saladin! Or Salah ad-Din. Yes this was the Saladin I was speaking of. His reputation as a gentleman and a man of mercy was widely known amongst Christians of his time - so much so we would like to claim him as our own - and all that you posted of him suerly was true.

You know it was outside of Jerusalem I believe?? That the Christians and Crusaders inside the walls of Jerusalem told a Christian mother who's daughter was abducted to go to Saladin (who was camped outside the city along with his Muslim army ready to attack the city and reclaim it for Islam) and tell him about her daughter, they told her he was a good and just man. The woman did. And Saladin moved by the womans tears and sorrow ordered that who ever had her child to bring her forward and return her, and that he would personaly pay the ransom or debt to warrior. The child was returned to her mother they both were safely escorted back to the gates of Jerusalem. Saladin also to my understanding died in poverty (of his choice) and had only a modest grave reserved for him (of his choice). He of course had all of the Templars and Hospitallars executed after the defeat of the Christian at the battle of Hattin, but this I would not say was an act of hatred and pure evil on his part, but rather one might say a wise decission on his behalf. For the Templars and Hospitallars unlike the secular Knight legions would never submit to slavery or pay ransom for their freedom nor would they ever surrender their resolve to fight. They were the most aggressive and fearless of the Crusaders and as Saladin knew... the greatest threat to Islamic empire.

Reginald of Chatillon, now here's a character, and proof that not all Christians come in love or good will. The Muslims of his time called him "the incarnate Satan". And he was quite a ruthless man who was moved far more by greed then a love of Christianity in his expeditionary involvement of the Crusades. Infact I think it might well have been because of his *extra credit* activity that the Crusades in the end failed in the Holy Land as it did. This is the man who brung down the wrath of Saladin by giving extra inspiration for Saladin to unite all of the Muslim world against the Crusaders. And quite a number that was.

Dear OoD,

Please learn some manners. It is rude to come on this board and blast those who are not Orthodox. Using the phrase "Latinism" is very prejorative and is basically the equivalent of "Niggerism"--neither of which is charitable or in the spirit of Christ.

While we may disagree with the RCs and ECs on some points, let's do it in the right spirit. From what I understand, good Orthodox praxis is to worry about one's own sins and not to point out the sins of others--especially the incessant manner in which you do it.

Please receive this in the gentle manner it was intended.

the sinner, Joseph

Joseph,

I assure you I did not mean the word Latinism in an offensive way. I speak honestly and openly and think that much of what passes for "manners" today is really just the sin of flattery and hypocrisy.

And after a careful review, you will see I have never discussed anyone elses sins, that is a grave accusation which I hope you will consider. I have only discussed doctrine and feel it is perfectly appropriate since Eastern Catholics consider themselves Orthodox, which is my faith as well.

Would it not be a tremendous discovery to find that the impossible exists, that is, there are differences between our versions of Orthodoxy? Is this not worth discussing?

Sufism, Sufis, and Sufi Orders: Sufism's Many Paths�

�From the Fatawa of Shaykh 'Abd al-Halim Mahmud:�

Sufism isn't "real" Islam?

Let orthodox Cairo speak:

On Sufism

Shaykh 'Abd al-Halim Mahmud, the chief religious authority in Egypt (Shaykh al-Azhar) until his death in 1978, in his book of legal pronouncments (Fatawa) clarified the nature of Sufism in the following manner: ��

Abu Bakr al-Kattani stated in his definition of Sufism (al-Tasawwuf) that it consists of [high-quality] comportment (khuluq).� So one whose comportment improves in quality, his purity (al-safa') will [similarly] become increased.��

Abu al-Hasan al-Nawawi stated, "Sufism neither consists of particular customs nor knowledge.� Rather it consists of [high-quality] comportment (khuluq).� Were it to consist of particular customs, it could be attained through striving (al-mujahada); and were it to consist of knowledge, it could be attained through instruction.� Sufism, however, consists of taking on the qualities of God (akhlaq Allah).���

Shibli defined it [Sufism], saying that its beginning is gnosis of God; and its end point is His affirmation of unity.���
And the comprehensive definition is the words of Abu Bakr al-Kattani, "Sufism is purity and witnessing. And Sufism began immediately with [the advent of] Islam.� This is because Islam consists of noble behavior as well as attunement to God in both simple affairs and those of great magnitude."�
��
Among the first Sufis after the Companions [of the Prophet] and the Followers [who succeeded them] were Ibrahim ibn Ad'ham and Fudayl ibn 'Ayyad.� As a consequence of people's confusion between the [terms] ascetic (zahid), worshipper ('abid), and Sufi, we can state [the following]:�

"The ascetic is one who turns away from the goods of the world and its pleasant things.�

The worshipper is one who is careful to observe the acts of worships, such as getting up [to prayer at night] (al-qiyam), canonical prayer (al-salat), and similar things.�
The Sufi is both an ascetic and a worshipper.� Thus the Sufi abstains from the world, since he is beyond the point where anything can distract him from God."���

Also, the Sufi is a worshipper because of his constancy with God and his link with God (may He be exalted).� He worships God because God is suitable for worshipping, not out of desire or fear.� [The Sufi woman saint] Rabi'ah al-'Adawiya --may God be pleased with her-- said, "O God, if I am worshipping you out of fear of Your hellfire, cast me into it.� And if I am worshipping you out of desire for Your paradise, prohibit me from entering it.� And if I am worshipping� You for the sake of Your noble face, do not prohibit me from seeing You."�

(From the Fatawa of Imam 'Abd al-Halim�
Mahmud)
�
�
Are the Sufis hopelessly mystical and otherworldly? Don't ask the Russians.

www.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/chechnya.htm [iol.ie]

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Alex,
I am fond of you and have no hatred for you even though I suspect you of relativist tendencies. Just today I was conversing with my Arab Latin relatives. We enjoy one anothers company and love to listen to one another especially when it comes to our religious differences. Just like I enjoy listening to you.

Dear Maximus,
I really admire your saintly name. I didn't have any rum tonight but I did have three bottles of "Red Stripe" beer(Jamaican berr, Ya man) and I was reflecting about my trip to Jamaica in November. Thanks for the memory, Aery man! Stay away from gancha.

Mor Ephrem,
Me not so sure of your post. "Silly sort of woman"? Silly rabbit tricks are for kids. I don't care for sports or for the Snickers bar.
Be very careful about placing your words in my mouth in regards to condemning others lest you turn me into one of the Hindu incarnate gods. As for your Baba John Paul II he did indeed command from his throne a day of Islamic fasting with the Muslims. Read this Muslim link http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2001-12/13/article9.shtml or http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/angelus/2001/documents/hf_jp-ii_ang_20011209_en.html

I dont believe that declared day of fasting was just a mere coincidence with Ramadan. It was intended. Besides I didn't think the Latins fasted during Advent. What are the fasting rules of the Latins and when are they practiced? Is it at the spur of the moment like Dec 14?

Believe it or not, I have read about many female Catholics converting to Islam on the cover of magazines and my local newspapers. I was not looking for these types of readings. I have not heard much about female Orthodox doing the same. However, I will grant you just one. lol
I read the absurd stories of these former Catholics & why Islam. It seems that they were disenfranchised with Western Christianity and wanted "true" religion. There's this former Catholic woman that has on her Illinois license plate "RU MUSLM". These are the most naive women mankind has ever known. They are certainly content where they are at and maybe you should hear what they really have to say of Catholicism. Myself, have met with some whom I think are flakes. I am sorry but that is what I encountered. They think they are intelligent and evangelizers like Jimmy Swagert. I'm tired of even thinking of them. Anyways, I'll talk to you boys another time. Salami alikum wa Muhammed's baloney as well.

Women in Islam

http://understandingislam.tripod.com/Women.htm

Dear Rum,

"I suspect you have relativist tendencies"

I can live with that, Orthodox Servant of Christ!

I, on the other had, strongly suspect you don't!

Alex

Dear Rum O.,

First off, you should seriously consider drinking Indian beer...

But on a more serious note, I read the links you gave me, and I personally gave more credence to the address of the Pope, where he cites many Christian reasons for fasting, and then mentions that the fast coincides with the last day of Ramadan. I think the key word in paragraph four is "moreover". Do the Latins fast during Advent? Not officially, as in mandated by canon law. But I know many Latins who do fast during Advent. Surely they aren't doing anything bad. All I said was that it was a Friday, and a Friday in what should be a penitential season, to boot. So the Pope decided to call a fast on an Advent Friday that also coincided with the last day of the Muslim fast. So what? I see nothing wrong with this. It's not advocating or promoting another religion. I fasted that day, even though I'm not Catholic (no, Rum O., while I'm pleased you identified me alongside JPII, he's not technically my Baba), in solidarity with Catholics and other Christians of good will, Orthodox and Protestant, and also with Muslims who were fasting and praying that day, not because I agree with everything everyone believes, but because that day was set aside by him to pray for peace, something we all need. If you saw Ground Zero up close and personal a week after it all happened, you'd fast too.

What are the fasting rules of the Latins and when are they practiced? Is it at the spur of the moment like Dec 14?

The grace of God moves where it wills, I guess.

Now go buy some Indian beer! :p

Women in Islam
http://answering-islam.org/Women/index.html

Dear Mor Ephrem,
I have no problem with the idea of fasting. I thought it unusual to coincide with Ramadan. I think this type of gesture is of a political nature. Please note that the fast took place on Dec. 14 not Sept. 11. I guess any Patriarch could command any day of fast. I had to ask myself "what gives"? If the Latins are already fast on Fridays then there would not have been more of a papal emphasis. Perhaps that's great that Baba John is revigorating the fasting rules but I think they have their rules buried somewhere in time and history. I saw this as only an exception. Where in the history of the Latin Church is there a day of fast on Dec. 14? I see the rules of fasting discarded a long time ago. I know that fasting is a great spiritual tool. Perhaps, the Latins may incorporate, instill, and adhere to fasting with the Orthodox. I would prefer to see that rather than to coincide with Ramadan. Ramadan is what brought havoc on Christendom. It is the day that the "revelations" came upon Mr. Muhammed ibn Abdallah as the chosen prophet of God. Do you think we can use more prophets like him? Perhaps God speaks to us through false prophets and distorted scriptures. Now, I think I will go buy some of your Indian beer tonight. It better be good. I might of tried it once but I forgot. Anyways, I'll have a drink to you and to all my Muslim friends.

By the way does Abdur drink? Abdur, are there any good Sufi drinks? With all those dances you guys do, I know I would need a drink.

Dear Rum,

"Dances the Sufis do"

Just a note from your loving relativ(ist).

This reminded me of the Orthodox New Martyr St Alexander the Whirling Dervish.

He became a Christian and preached Christianity for 17 years by doing his Dervish dancing among his Turkish countrymen.

Since he was a Dervish, they all thought he wasn't sincere and so he could do this for as long as he did.

One day he was found out and died a New Martyr's death for Christ.

And no, he drank neither beer nor rum . . .

Alex