www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Mor Ephrem,

Thanks for not getting angry. You make alot of good points. And New York is better known and the towers were a symbol of American or Western economic might.

But just to clarify - I didn't mean to imply that God was punishing New York but rather, allowed it to happen. More like New York (in a whole sense regarding it as a community) withdrew from God rather then God withdrawing from New York.

And I believe what you say about Our Lady and her Son. But I tend to think of the first person of the Trinity as the God of the Old Testament.

Yes, your right also that the Sears Tower could be hit to in the future, or any city for that matter. But maybe they could do us a favor and get rid of Texas

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rum Orthodox:

It is the day that the "revelations" came upon Mr. Muhammed ibn Abdallah as the chosen prophet of God. Do you think we can use more prophets like him? Perhaps God speaks to us through false prophets and distorted scriptures.

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem


"To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Whether you show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah calls you to account for it. He forgives whom He pleases and punishes whom He pleases. For Allah has power over all things.

The Messenger believes what has been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one of them believes in Allah, His angels, His books, and His Messengers. 'We make no distinction between one and another of His Messengers.' And they say: 'We hear and we obey; we seek Your forgiveness, Our Lord, and to You is the end of all journeys." (2:284-285.)

www.naqshbandi.org/audio/rasul.ram [naqshbandi.org]

Islamovic

Again, Maximus, it's an interesting idea. But somehow, I figure that if New York is bad, there are a few other big cities in this country who are just as bad and which also withdrew from God, and yet God allows New York to be hit because New York withdrew from God? New York isn't alone in this...and yet God allows it for New York?

I knew before that there were good people in New York, but after this, I really was stunned. And I found myself agreeing with the words of Metropolitan Archbishop Edward Cardinal Egan of New York when he was interviewed briefly after 11 September; namely, he said (and I'm paraphrasing some of this, since I heard it a while ago...if someone has the actual quote, please let me know) that since he'd been here he always knew New York for what everyone knew it for...but now he realised that it's not just a big city, or a popular city, a city of culture and arts, of business and finance, but a city full of holiness.

I can't speak for God...I just don't see it the way you offer above...and I feel safe saying that even if it wasn't New York, I'd feel the same way.

God bless!

Good post Mor Ephrem. I suppose there's not much to say to that.

By the way New York is one of my favorite cities. It's a good city with good people, I suppose though since it's so huge, many aspects of it are magnified.

Originally posted by OrthodoxyOrDeath

�The Orthodox position however is the same as that of the Church in all centuries past. Salvation can only be found within the Church. If one doubts this, then I suggest they start reading the Holy Fathers and reestablish contact with the fundamental teaching of the Church from all centuries past.�

Let us do just that.

The early father�s use of the phrase �no salvation outside the church� may be misunderstood when isolated from context.

I use the term Catholic Church as its is recorded and profusely used in all early church Ante-Nicene documents in conjunction with the church (�catholic church� - what church? the catholic church) and note that the term orthodox is used in conjunction with a description of right-faith and right-doctrine as opposed to wrong-faith and wrong-doctrine within that church (�orthodox faith� �catholic orthodoxy�) and note the word �orthodox� is absent from many early church documents altogether where the term �catholic church� is still found. The Church is called catholic and right-faith is called orthodox.

The context of the fundamental teaching is this�.

The early years of the Catholic Church was very busy forming doctrine. Many fathers of the early church disagreed on many items� being a �father� of the church does not mean one was error free - we can read many errors in their writings - errors which were later rejected by Councils of the Church. These disagreements and errors within the church, in fact, necessitated the Councils to settle things and unify an expression of doctrine.

The context in which �no salvation outside the church� as used by the early fathers and Councils must be placed in conjunction with these many Heresies of the early church that these documents were addressing. Let me say that again � The context in which �no salvation outside the church� as used by the early fathers and Councils must be placed in conjunction with these many Heresies of the early church that these documents were addressing.

�No salvation outside the church� was used as part and parcel of anathema and excommunication - which anathemas and excommunications were applied to members of the church - only.

Here is the reasoning of the Church�
In as much as all means of salvation do exist within the Church (on which does not necessarily follow that non-members have no means of salvation)� then any church member, who while knowing and understanding the truth, willfully refuses a direct command by proper Church authority to cease and desist from teaching an error - does reject the truth and also its associated means of salvation and may be declared to be a member - �outside of the church� - anathema and excommunication.

Therefore, excommunication applied to a member of the church also implies there is no salvation for that member while outside of the church.

This does not equate to the same things as - �there is no salvation for anyone who is not a member of the church.�

While member and non-members of the church may be in error - only members of the Church can be anathema or excommunicated. And that declaration has only been done by the authority of the hierarchy of the Church and on a person by person or case by case basis.

Of course the term heretic and heretical have always been thrown around very freely by people who wish to appear as saints, very intelligent, always in the right, but have no authority and use it as a thump card on the meek and confused.

At no time has the Church every taught that every one not a member of the Catholic Church - is a heretic and has no means of salvation.

The hierarchy of the Church has always recognized the difference between error and heresy. You may think of the difference like this - error is something that exists in the intellect while heresy is something that exists in the will of a member of the church. And the Church has always held that you can not reject what you do not know and understand and applied this to non-members.

The Church has always taught that the means of salvation are also extended to all men (non-members of the Church included) in as much as God governs all events of creation and any man may cooperate with these actions of Providence according to the morals of natural law (the Logos and Christ himself revealed through the things and events of creation).

�. Justin Martyr �.
"We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid" (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Moses, Elisha, Abraham, etc� and any good men of anytime who were never members of the judicial and historical Catholic Church as founded by Jesus in his apostles - still may come to salvation and ultimately, before or after death, full knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Sanctification is dependent upon one thing and one thing only - daily cooperation with Providence. This is available to all men of any nation and of any time and any belief. Deification is made through the build up of virtue - not intellectual knowledge and being doctrinally �right�.

All items, sacraments, rites and doctrines of the Church are an aide to that daily cooperation with Providence and their efficacy is dependent on free will and our cooperation with daily Providence.

While members of the Church have a duty to voice Christ�s message - as authorized by hierarchy - to the world � being a messenger does not assume automatic salvation to the messenger. Judas was also authorized to be an apostle and messenger.

While members of the judicial and historical Catholic Church and any of her rites or particular churches - who may deem that membership in the church, reception of the sacraments, fulfillments of her rites, intellectual knowledge of her doctrines - produces salvation irregardless of daily cooperation with the Will of God (Providence) is in error and makes of the church - magic - or Gnostic.

The Church has always insisted that God saves - the elements of the Church do not save but are of assistance - efficacy depended upon cooperation with Providence. I am not aware of any (there may be some) declarations by the Catholic Church on the efficacy of salvation of any non-Catholic churches. I guess that is God�s business and not ours.

-ray,

Awsome post! It is just insane how much can be learned about my faith from others across the internet. I've learned more about my faith from discussion with others on the internet in a year then I did with 1 through 12 years of Catholic schooling. Reading books helps of course, but it so much more inhanced with the help of communication with others via the internet.

Perhaps you should e-mail or fax your post to cradle Catholic Bill Maher - now agnostic. Alot of wrong information is put out about Catholicism on his show. I run into to many people who only get tabloid ( I think that's a good word to use ) type information about the Catholic Church and so think that Papal infalibilty means every word the Pope utters out of his mouth "good" catholics think our words sent from God. Same thing with things like indulgences - people think we believe we buy our way out of Purgatory. Even many lay catholics of this era think the same way of the Church, do to that outstanding education of our own faith recieve in Catholic schools.

FYI,

I have made several post here regarding this subject matter. Now I find a new member -ray and I dont want this to be confused with my name which is ray also (i.e. I am not trolling).

Thanks
Ray S.

How should the Church react to forced conversions in countries like Indos. and the middle east. Although, the Catholic Church has made efforts into improving Islam/Catholic relations the issue of forced conversion is still a thorn in the side of dialog. What are your thoughts?

RC@W, where's the evidence of forced conversions in India? I personally haven't seen it...I know of people in India who have converted from other religions and become Roman Catholic because then they could join Church-sponsored programmes to find work in Europe and North America. But such conversions weren't solicited. Just an example of a programme intended for Catholics, but which others took advantage of by converting.

I am sorry I should have spelled it out. I meant to say Indonesia. If you know me I am the worlds worse speller God gave us each talents spelling however is one he failed to hand out to me


Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!

LOL. I honestly thought you were saying India, but touched adjacent keys, since the o and the s in Indos are next to the i and the a in India. Oh well.

Islam came to Indonesia via missionaries and merchansts, not via invading armies. It became the religion of the ruling class (just as in Islamic Spain) and, over the centuries, was accepted by the majority of the Indonesian people.

On the other hand, if you mean forced conversions in the comtemporary sense you will have to provide me with specifics so that I might be able to respond to facts.

One thing I know for certain is the fact that the Islamic clerics of Indonesia would never accept as legitimate an other than voluntary or sincere conversion to Islam.

In other words, the Islamic clerics of Indonesia reject forced conversion to Islam just as the hierarchy of the Catholic Church reject the forced conversion of Jews to Catholicism.

Abdur

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

No offense (I mean this!) but if you do not think that there are no forced conversions in Indonesia then I believe you are living in fantasy land. We have countless accounts from Christian missionaries who tell us about people having to convert to Islam with a pistol behind their head. I do not think that these stories could all be made up. From what I understand there are hundreds if not thousands of accounts of this taken place in Indonesia.

My friend you should really open your eyes to this.

God Bless!
Ray S.

I did not mean to make a personal attack on you but I used this language to make a strong point.

Ray,

I just want to thank you for this post. I can't tell you how much of a problem I've had with this issue. It seemed to me like the Church had contradicted itself, but I was not seeing the context. I really appreciate what you wrote.

God Bless!

Jenny

Since Christian charity demands that you provide me with facts to prove your allegations, I would appreciate it if you would follow the ethics of Jesus. As you know, He was not a slanderer or pathological liar.
Why would you want to be? Do you consider yourself to be superior to the Lord Jesus?

There is no such thing as a forced conversion to Islam. Islam, according to our faith and not your ignorant interpretation of it, must be accepted with conviction and with the intent to follow and practice that faith.

If you do not provide facts to support your claim, then one must assume you are a slanderer and pathological liar, as well as a traitor to the Lord Jesus and the Catholic faith.

If you have proof of your allegations please post them so all of us, Christians and Muslims, can draw our own conclusions based on facts.

I am not the only Muslim reading these posts and, so far, you are not making a very good impression on the Muslim lurkers. None of us would be surprised to know that there are Sulafi Muslims (with their dirty tricks and evil ways), persecuting Muslims and Christians in Indonesia, but they are a tiny minority in a country of Muhammedi Muslims. So let us see the facts and let us not label the majority of Indonesain Muslims falsely. That is the honorable thing to do. I hope most Christians would agree.

"...but I used this language to make a strong point." aRomanCatholic,etc.

Abdur

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]