www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Relations with Islam: Part II

Abdur,

You asked for it:

http://www.cin.org/archives/cinjub/200012/0228.html

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/istwo.html

http://www.catholicprwire.com/headline.cfm?EntryID=276

Abdur, here is a great link from the USA embassy:
http://usembassy.state.gov/tokyo/wwwhgl0002.html

The embassy says, "Since January 1999, anywhere from 5,000 to 8,000 people, Christians and Muslims, have been killed in the Moluccas. Houses of worship from both communities have been destroyed. Over 500,000 people, again, both Christians and Muslims, have been forced to flee in fear of their lives." It goes on to say, ". Beginning in October of last year, there were increasing numbers of allegations of people being forced to convert to Islam or be killed. "

I hope you don't call the USA embassy a liar.

Here is some more links:

http://www.csw.org.uk/CSWnews.asp?item=171


http://www.jubileecampaign.org/news/nov2100.html

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2001-02/windonesia.html

http://www.petersvoice.org/molucca1.htm
This one is a very interesting read it says, "Victims Tell of Violence, Beheading and Forced Conversion"

Thousands forced to convert to Islam,
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/foris.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/112/14.0.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/16/210223.shtml

http://www.dailycatholic.org/issue/archives/1999Oct/203oct25,vol.10,no.203txt/oct25d c3.htm [dailycatholic.org]

This is a very touching story about a Muslim woman in the Molucca Islands wrote an open letter to publicly express her community's "shame" for the attacks on Christians by Islamic fundamentalists.
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0103/ZE010326.htm#3940

http://www.uga.edu/bahai/News/103101.html

BBC says, "Moluccas Christians bombed" later talks about forced conversions
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1057000/1057465.stm


http://www.cwnews.com/browse/2000/12/14453.htm


More Zenit news (We Catholics Trust Zenit)
http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/0101/WA010113.html

The country's Catholic bishops' conference said it is profoundly grieved for what has happened, affirming in a statement that "behind the deftly planned and executed bombings there is a well-organized, highly influential power, possessing a network and funds."

I like this statement "highly influential power, possessing a network and funds" To me that sounds like a rich oil country.


Abdur I can post a lot more if you would like?????


God Bless
Ray S.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholicGuy ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aRomanCatholicGuy:
[QB]Abdur,

You asked for it:
USA embassy:

The embassy says, "Since January 1999, anywhere from 5,000 to 8,000 people, Christians and Muslims, have been killed in the Moluccas. Houses of worship from both communities have been destroyed. Over 500,000 people, again, both Christians and Muslims, have been forced to flee in fear of their lives." It goes on to say, ". Beginning in October of last year, there were increasing numbers of allegations of people being forced to convert to Islam or be killed. "


I will give you credit: you did produce some facts.

But this is old news to me. I assumed you were reporting incidences of mass slaughter as current events. I am sorry for misreading your intent.

I realize now that you are not labeling Islam as a terroristic religion because of the actions of a few, especially the few of one country; considering there are forty-six Islamic countries ( and many countries with Muslim minorities) such an assumption would certainly be absurd.


I know of some Muslims who try to demonize Christianity with their variety of cock-eyed logic:

For example:

All Crusaders were Christians.

All Crusaders were terrorists.

Therefore, all Christians are terrorists.

Well, that is obviously fallacious and absurb thinking(?). But it is the same lunatic "logic" that some Christians and non-Christians assume is true about Muslims.

One day, maybe (but I doubt it), they will wake-up to reality.

Insh'allah..insh'allah.

[Sorry for digressing. Back to Indonesia.]


But the facts (as recorded in your posts) speak for themselves. The Moluccan tragedy is an isolated event that is an aberration, and not the norm is Indonesia.

Let us be grateful that the Moluccas are only a small part of Indonesia.

Unfortunately, the Moluccan islands have a long history of producing terrorists, both Muslim and Christian. Do you remember the Moluccan National Lieberation Front ( a so-called "Christian" independence and terrorist group) and their hijacking/hostage taking of a passenger train in Europe during the '70's, I believe?

You also have correctly stated that thousands of Muslims have also been murdered by Christian gangs who have also destroyed mosques. As your post states, both Muslims and Christians are guilty of atrocities. We can also happily note that the report of the US Embassy reports that the incidences occured three to four years ago. That is the good news, if there can be any good news relative to this criminal activity.

Let us hope those who live for peace will continue to make progress in overcoming Muslim and Christian gang warfare. (If you follow the money trail, you will see that many of these gangs have no interest in religion; the violence is all about money and power.)


We can only thank God that the Indonesian authorities are pressing the attack against these Muslim and Christian gangs and are trying to control a very volatile situation.

I have also read accounts of Christians saving Muslims from slaughter by Christian terrorists.

The majority of believers on both sides are good people, uncorrupted by the madness of the minority.

I retract my statements questioning your character. You are a gentleman and a true follower of Christ.

God is our only refuge.

Abdur

The Muslim Peace Fellowship: Supported by millions of devout Muslims

www.mpfweb.org [mpfweb.org]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

We should not stop at Ind. what about Egypt?

For example, the persecuted Coptic Church
http://www.copts.net/descrimination.asp

CNN reports, "Coptic Christians in Egypt blame police for town's violence"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/01/28/egypt.alkoshe.clash/

CNN again reports, "4 Muslims charged with killing Christians in Egypt religious rioting"
http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/01/06/egypt.violence/

Of course, we know these people are probably free now.

Time Magizine reports, "Complaints of growing religious and political bias in Egypt cause anxiety among Coptic Christians"
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/intl/article/0,9171,1107990118-19405,00.html

Human Rights Watch reports, "In another case, the Sohag Criminal Court sentenced Sourial Gayed Ishaq, a Coptic Christian, to three years in prison under articles 160 and 161 of the Penal Code for insulting Islam. He had reportedly made offensive remarks in public about Islam after sectarian violence broke out between Muslims and Christians in his village, al-Kusheh, on December 31, 1999."
http://www.hrw.org/wr2k1/mideast/egypt.html

The article gets in more detail. Basically, Egypt is persecuting Christians.

Here is a great story, "A new human rights report finds that Egypt's ancient Coptic Christians are persecuted by radical Islamic groups and at times by local police and other security officials and they are discriminated against and have their freedom to worship hampered by the Egyptian Government."
http://www.wlo-usa.org/News/Meast/freedom_house_3_31_99.html

Here is a wonderful article you might like to read Abdur. The title speaks for itself, "THE OPPRESSION OF MIDDLE EAST CHRISTIANS:
A FORGOTTEN TRAGEDY"
http://www.foigm.org/IMG/phares1.htm

How about this one Abdur, "Religious Persecution Continues In Egypt"
http://www.atour.com/news/international/20000531m.html

Amnesty International reports, "Tourists and Christians, as well as government officials, state security officers, policemen and prison officers have been the main targets of the armed political groups. In one incident, on 5 March 1994, an attack on a boat claimed the life of a German tourist. Six days later, five Copts, members of the ancient Christian Church of Egypt, were shot dead outside the a Coptic monastery by armed gunmen."
http://www.amnesty-volunteer.org/usa/mideast/reports/egypt.html


Next we should study how Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Sudan, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Afganistan, Jorda, etc... Persecute Christians. For example, it is a crime punishable by death to convert from a Muslim to a Christian in Saudia Arabia (Praise be Mohammed - Right?)

Praised be Allah!

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Raheem

La ilaha ill Allah

As you point out, only a tiny minority of Islamic states (out of the forty-six or so) continue the dirty of work of the past and continue to persecute Christians, Muslims, and persons of other or no faiths.

As you also point out, it is only a tiny minority of radical Egyptian Muslims who are behind the violence committed against the Coptic community and the greater Muslim community as well. As your reports also indicate, these radicals do not distinguish between Muslims and Christians, but persecute both with the same intensity of hatred. These Islamic terrorists have a great deal in common with the Christian terrorists of Indonesia, who also persecute and murder both Muslims and their fellow Christians. (Timor militias and others.) Evil certainly knows no ethnic or religious boundaries.

But we can be grateful that these countries are only a minority within Islam and we should be grateful to God that the vast majority of Muslim states have moved or are moving beyond the oppressive practices of the past.

In God's good time, the reforms Muslims strive for will also come to Egypt and Saudi Arabia. As more and more Europeans and Americans, the children of the Enlightenment, continue of convert to Islam (34,000 Americans have converted to Islam since 9/11), you will see gradual changes within these oppressive regimes as this new blood gives new life to the Islamic world and forces these oppressive regimes to confront the realities of the 21st century.

Thousands of persons of the western tradition are converting to Islam yearly. They will bring with them their "reforming ways" and will continue to change the face of Islam where it needs to be changed. And we should not become pessimistic and assume that the Chistian terrorist groups of Indonesia and Serbia are beyond redemption. There is hope even for them.

Thank you for your posts. They remind those of us who are Muslims of how far we have come in the reform of the Islamic Ummah.

The Muslim Ummah is 1,200,000,000 strong (the total population of the Islamic countries you have listed where there is persecution of Christians and Muslims comprises only 17% of the world Islamic population), and the Muslim Ummah is rapidly growing, with a high birth rate and thousands of converts per year adding to our numbers. We will overwhelm the anti-Islamic terrorist forces who have defamed Allah and Islam, just as our Afghan Muslim brothers and sisters have. The tiny handful of evil doers who have tried their diabolical best to bully and terrorize Muslims and others have met their match in a reinvigorated Islam that refuses to be blackmailed by the anti-Islamism of imposters, like Osama ben Laden and the corrupt Saudi dynasty and their Wahhabi clerics, who have severed themselves from Islam and God.
And we do not demonize Christians as terrorists because of the evil deeds of Christian terrorist groups. No normal person would do such a thing, Christian or Muslim.


Keep up the good work and may Allah continue to bless you. You confirm our Islamic faith and make us strong in our devotion to it. Mohammed be praised!


Abdur

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

� �
MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS� � WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 �


�President Bush met at the White House Monday with Afghan interim leader Hamid Karzai, and pledged a strong alliance to help rebuild the ravaged country and create a new Afghan military.��
� � �� � �
�
� � � Karzai is 'a determined leader, [whose] government reflects the hopes of all Afghans for a new and better future.'
� PRESIDENT BUSH
� � � �IN A PRESS CONFERENCE at the White House, Bush warmly praised Karzai as "a determined leader, [whose] government reflects the hopes of all Afghans for a new and better future � a future free from terror, free from war and free from want."
� � � �The president said the United States will work closely with peacekeeping forces to rebuild Afghanistan and create a new army and police force.
� � � �"The United States will continue to be a friend of the Afghan people, in all the challenges that lie ahead," Bush said.

LATEST DEVELOPMENTS
THE WAR ��Raid kills al-Qaida in Kandahar hospital ��Bush announces Afghan alliance, pledges to help rebuild nation's military ��Bush says detainees are not POWs ��Complete coverage THE HOME FRONT ��WP: Pentagon plans homeland command ��Poll: Women offer more support for defense ��Next steps for John Walker Lindh ��Complete coverage � � � �Karzai also expressed optimism about the countries' alliance. "Afghanistan is a good partner. ... And I'm sure that the future of the two countries will be a good and wonderful relationship," he said.
� � � �"Afghanistan does need help in reconstruction, does need help in the rebuilding of its national army" Karzai said. "I assure you, Mr. President, that Afghanistan, with your help ... will be strong and will stand in victory on its own feet. We will not allow terrorism to return to it."
� � � �
FLAG-RAISING CEREMONY
� � � �Monday morning, Karzai took part in a ceremony raising the Afghan flag at the newly reopened Afghan embassy in Washington.
� � � �"This flag is raised not without costs," Karzai said, "without the costs of having struggled for many years, without the costs of having lost so many lives in order to have a free, sovereign and good Afghanistan � an Afghanistan without the presence or threat of terrorism. ... The Afghans share the pain [of terrorism] with the American people; they have shared the same pain.
� � � �"I'm thankful to the American people, to the government, for giving us this opportunity, for helping to rebuild this embassy. ... [The hope is that] the partnership of the American-Afghan people will be forever."
� � � �Earlier Monday, Karzai said he would welcome U.S. participation in the multinational peacekeeping force in his nation, and in its deployment beyond the capital, Kabul.
� � � �"The people I've met over the past month ... almost all of them have asked me to ask the international security forces to go to the other parts of the country," Karzai said on NBC's "Today."
� � � �"If we need them at any time to be there in the rest of the country, we will ask for it," he said. "And if the United States can be there as part of that multinational force, it's welcome."


� � � �Karzai also will tour the Pentagon with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and will be an honored guest during Bush's State of the Union speech on Tuesday.
� � � �
HISTORIC VISIT
� � � �Karzai is the first Afghan leader to go to Washington since ex-king Mohammed Zaher Shah met with President Kennedy in September 1963.
� � � �His aides said his plans would include a request to Bush that U.S. troops remain on Afghan soil to continue their battle against the al-Qaida terrorist network and the hard-line Taliban militia, which sheltered Osama bin Laden and his forces until it was pushed from power.
� � � �"We want the operation to continue as long as needed, and until the danger from them and their terrorist presence is no longer felt," Yosuf Nooristani, spokesman for the leader of the six-month interim government, told Reuters.
� � � �
TOP TREATMENT
� � � �Karzai's foreign minister, Abdullah, has been in Washington for several days, working with White House aides to prepare for a smooth visit. Abdullah, who uses only one name, had meetings Friday with top officials, including an unexpected 15-minute session with Rumsfeld.


� � � �Abdullah's talks with Rumsfeld, as well as with Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Condoleezza Rice, the National Security Adviser, primarily concerned how to secure peace throughout Afghanistan.
� � � �
IMPROVING COMMUNICATION
� � � �Karzai, who fought against the Taliban and then traded battle fatigues for a leader's mantle, has erupted into the world of global diplomacy as he leads the rough-hewn government in the massive task of rebuilding Afghanistan.


� � � �After more than two decades of war, Afghanistan is in dire need of nonpolitical military and police forces. Though the interim government � along with local warlords � have begun to train new recruits, there remains a shortage of skilled soldiers and arms.
� � � �Karzai, who speaks fluent English and has strong ties to the United States, has more on his agenda.
� � � �Though the United States has already pledged about $300 million, as part of a package of pledges from international donors totaling about $4.5 billion to rebuild Afghanistan, Karzai � a member of the majority Pashtun ethnic group � is likely to seek more money.
� � � �
'SENTIMENTAL' TRIP
� � � �In an interview with Newsweek magazine, Karzai downplayed any potential disputes over international aid. "The U.S. has already helped us by announcing $296 million of help to Afghanistan, so basically this is a sentimental trip," he told Newsweek.
� � � �The sentimental aspect of the trip is also highly symbolic for a new leader who spent time in the United States. The Karzai family owns restaurants in Baltimore, San Francisco and Cambridge, Mass.
� � � �
� � � �
FLOWERS FOR AMERICA
� � � �Karzai's schedule includes an address to the local Afghan community in Washington, meetings with House and Senate leaders, a keynote speech at the World Economic Forum � which has been moved this year from Davos to New York City � and a ceremony at the site of the World Trade Center.
� � � �In an interview with Newsweek, he placed special emphasis on the visit to Ground Zero: "I'm coming to the U.S. to go to New York to take flowers to the Twin Towers, and tell the American people that we have tremendous sympathy for them," he told the magazine.
�

Abdur,

I'm sure Karazi will be a good leader. I sense he is a good man.

And someone should tell your Muslim brothers in Afganistan to watch out for the US help as a few years pass by... because about that time they'll be trying to push the Afganistan government into implementing population control policies i.e. legalized abortion.

Maximus,

I heard that legalised abortion has already been brought to Afghanistan...didn't take very long, did it?

I stumbled upon this bit of information. Unfortunately, there is no date, so, I do not know if this is the current law.* * *
�
AFGHANISTAN. Penal Code.
Chapter Four. Abortion


Article 402. A person who intentionally causes abortion of a human fetus by beating or any other harmful means shall be sentenced to long imprisonment not exceeding seven years.


Article 403.
(1) A person who causes abortion by means of drugs or otherwise, even though the act has been accomplished with the consent of the pregnant woman, shall be sentenced to medium imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not less than twelve thousand Afghanis and not exceeding sixty thousand Afghanis.
(2) If the drugs have been administered by mistake, the offender shall be sentenced to short imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not exceeding twelve thousand Afghanis.


Article 404.
(1) If the person committing the act of abortion is a medical doctor, surgeon, pharmaceutist, or a nurse, the offender shall be sentenced to the maximum anticipated punishment for the crime.
(2) If the persons, specified under the above paragraph, commit the act of abortion for the purposes of saving the life of the mother, the offender shall not be punished.


Article 405. A pregnant woman who, cognizant of the repercussions of the act, deliberately uses drugs or other means or allows someone else to apply these means to her, as a result of which abortion takes place, shall be sentenced to short imprisonment or shall be fined an amount not exceeding twelve thousand Afghanis.


Article 406. Initiating an act of abortion shall not be deemed punishable.
* * *
�
If many Afghani women were raped by the Taliban and al-Qaidi terrorists, it very well could be that many of them could be seeking abortions.

But that is merely speculative on my part.

Abdur

Abdur,

I wish I had your Optimism about the future. It is my belief (I can back it up) that ALL Muslim nations persecute Christians. Although, the persecution may come from a few, the governments of those nations are not doing anything to stop the few. I pray for a day when ALL Muslims will see the errors of their ways and return to the True faith the Catholic/Orthodox Church and the True God the Blessed Trinity as told in the Bible.

One day I hope we can start building Christian Churches in Saudia Arabia and bring the Good News to the people of Mecca! Praise Jesus Christ!

God Bless
Ray S.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

UPDATE! "Pakistani Militants Claim To Have Kidnapped American Journalist"

We should all pray for this man and that he returns to his family safely!

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,325833-412,00.shtml

Dear Abdur Islamovic:

Hello my friend.

My heart is with my Muslim neighbors. I have studied early Eastern and Mid-Eastern culture for many years in order to understand the context of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. As you might guess, this also gives me perspective on the rise of Islam. I am aware of the trials that God�s Providence puts our Muslim brothers through. As history marches on (and no man can stop it) cultures rise and fall and change like waves on the shore.

Dead fish float down stream. It is easier for a man to misunderstand someone not like himself, than it is to try to understand. I understand that the first rule of Islam is to love God and the second is the brotherhood of man.

In two weeks, I will be attending Mosque for the first time.

I am Roman Catholic, I also attend Orthodox Liturgy when I can, and I also have the goal to attend Synagogue this year.

There is but One God. But man uses many languages and so the face of God appears differently to men according to their culture - in as much as His Providence cares for all men ever created.

Mention me to God in your prayers� that I may be a good representative of Jesus whom God has seen fit to have me follow� and I shall pray for you that your dedication to Islam shine in the way God wishes.

There is nothing that fills my heart more than to stand with my Jewish and Muslim brothers and together, raise silent hearts to the unknowable nature of God who created us - that same unknowable nature of the Father of us all.

-ray

Dear Ray,

Well, if that's what you think about Muslims and Jews, the only thing I can say is . . .

God bless you ever so richly!

Alex

There is nothing more dangerous than a cornered and wounded animal.

These terrorists know that their days are numbered.

Expect more of these cowardly acts.

Abdur

Orthodox Catholic,

You said, "Well, if that's what you think about Muslims and Jews, the only thing I can say is . . ."

Did I EVER say anything about JEWS? Did I? NO I DID NOT! I would appreciate an apology! My opinion of Muslims is based on FACTS not Fiction! I have respect for Muslims but I do not think their Church is from God.

As far a Jews go they are children of God and we should respect them. Israel belongs to the Jews and any Jew can be a friend of mine. Unfortunetly, the Qu'ran forbids Muslims from being friends to Christians when it says, "Do NOT take Christians and Jews for friends". Therefore, I am afraid I can never befriend a real Muslim.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Mor E. & Abdur, it would surprise me if legalized abortion was brung into Afaginstan so quickly. But then I suppose stranger things have happened.