www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Coptic use of the "Ankh"

Dear Ray,

Yes, the only real difference between the Orientals and us today has to do with the Ecumenical Councils - they take three, we take seven or, in your case, 21!

But even if that matter were to be settled, a formal act would have to be made between the EO and OO for there to be real communion.

Alex

Dear brothers, sisters, friends
I as a Coptic monk brought up and rooted since my childhood in the Coptic Orthodox Church tradition for more than 60 years proclaim that there are no roots or even traces of what is mentioned in your chat about the Ankh symbol as a Coptic Cross. We saw it only in the secular history books and the in common Pharaonic museums in Cairo. Our Cross in which we believe and were baptized on His name is the Cross of our Lord and our God and our Saviour Jesus Christ on which He was crucified on the time of Pontius Pilatos for our sake and our salvation. Do not relate this Holy Cross to any Pagan symbols. This is a lie to the Christian faith of the Copts. The first Egyptian who believed in the Christian Faith on the hand of St. Mark the Apostle and Evangelist accepted the Good tidings of Jesus Christ through the grace of the Holy Spirit Who move his good heart to believe in Christ without any foreign motives or symbols be it pagan or anything else. Please do not mingle the Faith with the pagan inventions and defame or deform the work of the Holy Spirit. The ancient sources of the history of the Coptic Church proves all what I had said.
God bless you all.
Monk Basilios of St. Macarius Monastery, Scetis, Egypt

The following text from Socrates might help enlighten the connection made between the Ankh and the Cross. As it suggests, the Christians upon seeing the Ankh after destroying the Temple of Serapis, saw it as a divine symbol suggesting that it was ordained by God:

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Of the Hieraglyphics found in the Temple of Serapis.

When the Temple of Serapis was torn down and laid bare, there were found in it, engraven on stones, certain characters which they call hieroglyphics, having the forms of crosses.Both the Christians and pagans on seeing them, appropriated and applied them to their respective religions: for the Christians who affirm that the cross is the sign of Christ's saving passion, claimed this character as peculiarly theirs; but the pagans alleged that it might appertain to Christ and Serapis in common; `for,' said they, `it symbolizes one thing to Christians and another to heathens.' Whilst this point was controverted amongst them, some of the heathen converts to Christianity, who were conversant with these heiroglyphic characters, interpreted the form of a cross and said that it signifies `Life to come.' This the Christians exultingly laid hold of, as decidedly favorable to their religion. But after other hieroglyphics had been deciphered containing a prediction that `When the cross should appear,'-for this was `life to come,'-`the Temple of Serapis would be destroyed,' a very great number of the pagans embraced Christianity, and confessing their sins, were baptized. Such are the reports I have heard respecting the discovery of this symbol in form of a cross. But I cannot imagine that the Egyptian priests foreknew the things concerning Christ, when they engraved the figure of a cross. For if `the advent' of our Saviour into the world `was a mystery hid from ages and from generations,'as the apostle declares; and if the devil himself, the prince of wickedness, knew nothing of it his ministers, the Egyptian priests, are likely to have been still more ignorant of the matter; but Providence doubtless purposed that in the enquiry concerning this character, there should something take place analogous to what happened heretofore at the preaching of Paul. For he, made wise by the Divine Spirit, employed a similar method in relation to the Athenians,and brought over many of them to the faith, when on reading the inscription on one of their altars, he accommodated and applied it to his own discourse. Unless indeed any one should say, that the Word of God wrought in the Egyptian priests, as it did on Balaam68 and Caiaphas;69 for these men uttered prophecies of good things is spite of themselves. This will suffice on the subject.
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Socrates, History, V.17 (http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf2-02-10.htm#P1647_710113 )

My comment on the quotation from Socrates:
This is a mere imaginations from the popular sentiments based on fanatic attitudes from both pagans and nominal Christians. There is no mention to the authorities or the Holy Fathers of the Church to validate this applying. Now there are no pagans in Egypt. The Christian Faith began in Egypt before the discovery of the Ankh symbol. The Christian liturgical orders are based on the Truth of our Lord Jesus Christ not on undiscoverd pagan symbols which shall be discovered after 400 years of the settling of the Christian liturgy on the Truth not on unknown symbols. Now the Copts do not know what Socrate said 1600 years ago and do not this Ankh symbol. The Church buildings all over Egypt are raising the sign of the TRUE Holy Cross. The Coptic people are crossing themselves by the true Cross, hanging the crosses on their necks and engraving the same TRUE Cross on their hands. There are no reason to search back the root or the relation of this Holy Cross in the discovered Serabis temple in the fifth century and not in the TRUE Holy Cross of the first century in the Golgotha. Thank you all.
Basilios

Dear Monk Basilios and friends,

I should have clarified earlier but perhaps you will all understand the reason for my question when I explain.

My third son, Anthony Athansius Nerses Thaddaeus was given a Holy Cross for his Baptism (as I do for all of my children). Only being he was named primarily after two Holy Egyptian Fathers I thougth it would be fitting to give him what I thought was a Coptic Cross. A Roman Catholic text book I had in my library listed the Ankh as a Traditional Coptic Cross. Therefore, I bought this for him. After a few years I started to become suspicious of this and started asking more questions. Now I realize that many, if not all Coptic Christians would never wear the Ankh as a Cross around their neck, nor do they use it in their Churches. So it was a little ridiculous for my son to be running around wearing what I thought was a Coptic Cross in honour of two Coptic Saints, when no Copt would recognize this as a Cross they themselves would wear. See my point?

Alex mentioned European nobility used it but they don't really figure into this equation. Besides with the Latins use of gargoyles et all, I wouldn't look to them for much direction in this matter. But thanks anyway.

I hope this explains my question. I have purchased an Armenian Cross for my son (I knew this one was authentic) . Sts. Andon and Atanas both figure greatly in our Church as well. The Ankh, because it was blessed, now hangs on my wall as a symbol of Egyptian history.

Thanks to you all!

Dear Friends,

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that the Ansate Cross as we understand it is a traditional Cross of the Holy Coptic Church of Egypt.

If that ever came across and if I suggested it, then it is wrong and I'm sorry for it.

(The Ansate Cross DID become a legitimate form of the Cross in Europe and European Christian heraldry and that is a fact and it has nothing whatever to do with nobility except insofar as they used it on their shields etc. It was not European nobility that gave the Ansate Cross its meaning, but Christian missionaries and the Church).

What is being suggested is that the various forms of the Cross (and there are more than one, of course, and national Churches have developed their own "national" Cross as the Armenians have in the "Khatchkar" and also the Copts as well), what is being suggested is that the depiction of the Christian Cross is CULTURALLY rooted in pre-Christian forms - the pagans did indeed hold crosses as symbols of life and wore it around their necks, for example, as can be readily seen in statues of pagan Assyrian kings etc.

I have seen this myself and, at first sight, I thought these were statues of Christian kings - what a shock I received when these were Assyrian rulers who lived a few thousand years before Christ!

Pagan religions also used prayer beads and the like.

But the point is that there is no insult toward Christianity or any Particular Church intended by simply showing the cultural carry-overs from pre-Christian traditions.

But, for the record, the ankh as such has NEVER been used as a Cross of Coptic Egypt.

Alex

Bless, Holy Father Basilios of Egypt!

How wonderful to have you visit us here and do us the honour of posting!

I often use the Coptic Agbeya as it is a most beautiful Horologion!

May I ask a question regarding the Hour of the Veil?

As I understand it, this Hour should ONLY be recited by monastics and by priests? Lay-people should not recite it - is this correct?

Also, while so many psalms are recited daily in the seven prayers of the Agbeya, is the ENTIRE book of psalms recited by the Coptic Church?

I once read that sometimes the Psalter is divided into groups of thirty psalms and so the Psalter is said in its entirety in a day.

Is this true?

I ask your forgiveness for having given offense in anything I said!

And as I ask this of every Coptic priest or monk I meet - did you know that the Ethiopian Church venerates as a saint, Pontius Pilate? If not, what do you think of that?

Asking your paternal blessing,

Alex

Dear Alex, my Armenian brother (or Father)
Thank you for your prompt positive answer. I appreciate your estimation of the Holy Coptic Orthodox Church the heir of the historical Church of Alexandria with all its authentic theology of the Anastasis. I hope that all the Churches of all faithes be awaken and alert to the horrible disaster surrounding the Holy Christian Church of our Lord Jesus Christ all over the world. And you know what I mean. May we all pray and pray and pray without ceasing to be saved in these bad times.
Dear Alex
The Agbia with its 7 hours of praying is prayed by the Coptic Church and many of the pious Copts. The Veil prayer is prayed by Monks, Bishops and priests. The Agbia prayers is the Holy gate to the personal and private prayers given to God inside our closets and private rooms. May all the people of God in all the world be men of prayer and people of suplications on behalf of the Church.
Basilios

Bless, Father Basilios!

Thank you!

Yes, the Holy Coptic Church is, today, bearing MANY Martyrs for Christ - and they are suffering persecution even as we speak!

I think the Agbeya can and should be prayed by Christians of all traditions.

It would be a wonderful way to show solidarity with the suffering martyrs and confessors of Coptic Africa today!

(I'm still not used to saying the full Midnight Office, but hopefully in time . . .)

Asking your blessing in our Lord and the Mother of God of Zeitoun,

Alex

Addendum to Alex
In the earliar time of Monastic times the Psalms were prayed by monks and anchorites once a day 30 psalms every 5 hours. Many pious laymen (men and women) try to follow the monastics in this worship according to their ability.
In the Coptic tradition (which was translated in the early centuries to the Ethiopian Church) Pilate and his wife Claudia was baptized and became Christians.
Basilios

To all Forum members,

If anyone would like to investigate the beautiful Coptic Horologion/Agpeya, here is a site for you (I understand "Agpeya" simply means "hours?")

www.agpeya.org [agpeya.org]

Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of the Coptic Church of today, pray unto God for us!

Lord, protect Your Church of Egypt, Sudan, Nubia and Ethiopia!

Alex