www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Cardinal Kasper on Catholic-Orthodox Relations

On Monday, Cardinal Kasper had a special forum with faculty and graduate theology students at CUA, where people were free to ask him any question they wanted. One asked what he thought about current Catholic and Orthodox relations, and he was quite positive. He seemed to think that where there was often a cold attitude towards Rome by some (like the Russians) a thaw has come.

To explain where he thought there was a problem, and also a thaw, he discussed the Pope's travels where the Orthodox got to meet with him, and see who he is and see his true love and desire for unity. Originally, many of the Orthodox leaders told the Pope when he was coming to visit said that they could not pray with him, using canons which spoke against praying with heretics. Now, after all his travels, after his returning of many precious relics and artifacts to the Orthodox, even from those who were against praying with the Pope now, when they visit Rome, suggest simple prayers together like the Our Father.

This is good news, even if it is only a start. We already know many of the Orthodox were sharing prayers with Catholics before, but we also know there were always holdouts. Sergius Bulgakov once pointed out that it was this kind of ecumenism, that of prayer together, which will open up the dialogue and the heart.

While it is still a long way until unity is established, I thought I would at least share this positive response.

Thank you very much, Henry, for sharing this!

Glory to God!

In Christ,
Alice

I agree. it is always great to see God's people coming together, and wounds heal.The wounds run deep between Rome and Moscow (and Constantinople), and they are quite ancient, and will take time to heal. I only hope that the healing takes a lot less time than than the antilife of the wounds themselves. may every year of hurt take but a moment to heal.
Much Love,
Jonn

Unity between Rome and Constantinople will proceed according to God's plan. I believe that this is what Jesus wants.

The first step is forgiveness. True, the wounds are old - and deep. Nevertheless, Jesus calls on us to forgive - all of us.

I believe the Holy Father is working to accomplish exactly that. Unity will not occur in his lifetime - or likely any of ours. In another (Latin) Catholic message board I check out while I eat lunch at work, there are several huge threads discussing the Catholic Church and Orthodoxy. Both the Catholic and Orthodox on those threads spend a lot of time lecturing AT each other but little or no time LISTENING TO each other.

Orthodoxy will NEVER agree to unify with Rome under the present operating structure of the Curia, and they are right to think in that way. The Curia is far too bureaucratic and has not fully respected the charism of the Eastern Churches. Second, the role of the Pope should be separated from the Patriarch of the West and the Bishop of Rome.

In the meantime, there is nothing to stop faithful Orthodox and Catholics from praying and listening to each other - as well as recognizing that we are all part of the Body of Christ.

The first thing Cardinal Kasper needs to do is to be just to Greek Catholics whom he claims to be in communion with. We can start there. He has discussed the ecclesiastical structure of Greek Catholic structure to other Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs without even involving or inviting those same Greek Catholics to take part.

Forgive me if some of us choose to be a bit more reserved in judgement regarding the person of Cardinal Kasper. We very much feel the spectre of Ostpolitik in his dealings. Greek Catholics in general in Eastern Europe do not have a very positive impression of him considering the recent past. He needs first to take care of that if he wants support and trust in the very areas of Eastern Europe he is targeting for ecumenism.

Dear Diak,

Forgive me, but I needed to say "Kudos" for your post!

And "Kudos" for your Canon and Akathist to St Leonid Fyodorov!

My father-in-law shared a copy of my akathist to Met. Andrew Sheptytsky with his parish priest - who is a Basilian as well.

Do you know what he said? He called him up last night basically to question my calling Andrew "Holy" in the akathist as he has not been beatified . . .

And that's not allowed in private prayer?

Sheeesh . . .

Heaven save us from such!

A blessed Fast to you and yours!

Alex

I was not trying to comment about Cardinal Kasper's activities as much as relate his commentary upon Catholic-Orthodox relations. There are many complexities here, and we must admit it, whether we like to or not, our own very existence is a problem and one of the central questions relating to Catholic-Orthodox relations. It is not a one way street, and we have and do encounter prejudice from both ends. We are left for the slaughter, so to speak. The West will try to order us around, and while Latinization is no longer the name of the game, the causes for Latinization continue to be in effect. To the Orthodox, especially in Russia, we are a sign indicating their own failings, and they want to cover us up, even as the OCA covers up their relationship to us in the US.

There were two different questions I wanted to ask Kasper, and neither I was able to do. One had to do with the response to Mormonism, and how the rejection of their baptism is not a creeping Donatism. The second had to do with the fact that there needs to be intra-religious dialogue within the Catholic Church, and if the West does not treat their own Easterners properly, why would any other Orthodox ever want communion with Rome.

But I decided it was not the time or place for such questions, and my post was more on the improved relations we have had, with those same leaders saying they can't pray with the Pope now willing to pray in limited fashion. Truly the way of Solovyov is for me the way I view the Eastern Catholic... we must be willing to give our cloak even, if it means helping the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church regain its full integrity.

Thank you kindly, Dr. Roman, and i vam to you and yours.

Perhaps it's because I was originally born in Missouri, but Cardinal Kasper is going to have to "show me" a few things first...

Henry, to be overtly blunt, any "commentary" from the Cardinal, if he wants a significant part of the Catholic world to take him seriously, needs to be preceded by concrete actions that show concern and foster trust and respect for those Eastern Catholics he is supposedly in communion with and for whom he presumes to speak.

Henry,

I'm not sure the Donatist analogy applies to Mormonsim. The LDS view of God is very different from that of Christians. They believe God (The Father) was once a mortal man who spiritually progressed to became what He is now. When they say "God", they mean man-God. While their baptisms appear Trinitarian they should be rejected out-of-hand.

Bob

On further thought I will add that Josephy Smith, Jr., the first "prophet" of the LDS comminity, said that God the Father has a physical body and is one of the "personages" who appeared to him at the beginning of his campaign of heresy. The LDS community is also big on performing proxy baptisms for the dead.

Herny and Ortho,
To be a valid baptism whether within or without the visible boundries of the Church serveral conditions need to be met.
#1 Baptism must be Trinitarian
In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Mormon baptism uses this formula it is true, but like Ortho stated, their intention is lacking because they mean something far diffferent from what the Church's belief is.
#2 Baptism has to be done with water.
#3 The intention of the minister.

Mormon baptism is null and void since it is never done with this intention of baptizing into the Trinitarian Faith.

Stephanos I
A sinner who has found the road home.

First I'd like to say that I quite agree with Diak and Henry that there needs to be dialogue WITH the EC Churches, and not just ABOUT them.

Second, Henry mentioned "our own very existence is a problem and one of the central questions relating to Catholic-Orthodox relations." (This reflects a what the Orthodox/Roman Catholic Consultation in the United States
says of the Balamand statement: "... it seeks to put an end to the present tensions occasioned by the existence of the Eastern Catholic churches.")

This may be a good time to bring up something which has been troubling me regarding the use of the term "existence". The Balamand Statement says:

I'm wondering if these ideas should perhaps be formulated with a little more caution and clarity, perhaps "the Eastern Catholic Churches have the right to exist and also to be part of the Catholic Communion."

The danger, as I see it, is the possibility of giving the impression that the EC Churches depend on their communion with Rome for their continuing existence as churches.

If it did actually happen that the EC Churches all left the Catholic Communion (which, of course, I consider extremely unlikely to happen) then "Eastern Catholicism" would in fact cease to exist. But is this kind of rhetoric (drama?) really helpful? The important thing is that the churches themselves would continue to exist.

Going to back to Henry's statement (quoted above), I don't disagree strictly speaking, but wouldn't it be better to say that the problem is the fact of our being in communion with Rome, rather than our existence?

God bless,
Peter.

P.S. I just noticed that Balamand 34 say "... the Eastern Catholic Churches who are called to take part in this dialogue ... "

I stopped listening to Kasper back in 2003 when
he publicly denied Church teaching on
Apostolic Succession.................