www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Weeping Icons And Statues

Dear Rayk,

You raise a number of great points, as per your usual!

It is true that we Easterners tend to give a knee-jerk reaction to "Latinization" and the "Latins."

(And you are right, I'm less inclined to be like that given that, who am I kidding, I AM Latinized! ).

The term "Latins" can be a term of offense, just like "Uniates." I prefer to use the term "Latin Catholic" rather than just "Latins" that has a nasty history in the East.

As you know, the term "Roman" is one that both Catholic and Orthodox Churches take for their own (the Orthodox use "Rhoum" or "Romaioi"(.

To be a "Roman" in the classical Christian sense means that one comes from the spiritual/cultural/religious achievement that is the Greco-Roman Christian world.

The Byzantine (or "New Roman") world called the West "Latins" to indicate that, as "heretics" they are now in possession of only a partialized identity.

Not to be outdone, the West, following the schism, called the Byzantines (again, this term means "New Romans") "Greeks" to likewise indicate that, having fallen from grace through separation from "THE Church" the Byzantines are no longer heirs to the "Roman" (i.e. Greco-Latin) true Church but only to a partialized ethnic "Greek" schismatic tradition.

I agree with most of what you wrote concerning the differences between East and West on the matter of revelations.

I agree with the view, however, that private revelations in the West have tended to play a much more prominent popular, devotional role in the spiritual lives of Catholic laity (especially in Latin America and Europe) than in the lives of the Eastern laity.

And I think the argument that says one reason for this is that the liturgical services of the Church were always more readily accessible to the Eastern laity than obtained in the West is a cogent one.

I wrote a paper on this topic to understand the role of RC devotions in the pre-Vatican and post-Vatican Churches. It is clear that the laity, at least in North America, of the RC Church have become much more connected to the public, liturgical life of the Church than previously.

The Latin language (the language of the educated), clericalization and other issues are what contributed to this.

It is also a cultural thing and the RC faithful of Latin America continue to focus on this much more than RC's elsewhere.

In the East, it was always common to find the Book of Divine Praises, the Bible and the Psalter and other liturgical texts in the private homes of the laity in a much more general way - and they were used for personal, lay worship as much as they were for priestly and monastic worship.

It was common, for example, among the Ukrainian Kozaks for them to know the Psalter by heart and to sing it incessantly even during their campaigns.

Those who were captured in battle continued to use the memorized Psalter and other liturgical texts as food for their devotional life in captivity.

I had no intention of being even remotely offensive in saying this or of raising eyebrows in any way.

Roman Catholic commentators on Vatican II are the ones who have said that the Fathers of that Council wished Catholic laity would return to the public prayer of the Church etc. and generally give the reasons I have for why they had originally fallen away from it.

Alex Roman

If you continue on this way - I might stop reading your posts.



Ah yes� encouraged to say the Divine Office and join with that Liturgical prayer as prayed by the entire church. I remember that.

I guess my contribution to the discussion was that the Good Lord seems to sprinkle these items around his entire church� and underneath the veneer of what theologians or press or anyone else may theory - people act like people will act� some go home better for the experience and some do not.

Don�t get me wrong Alex� although I often defend the Roman Catholic part of the One Catholic church - in here - by presenting it in the ways I understand it to be misunderstood by some (even Catholics themselves) - I do not give the human nature of the Church (any church) a clean bill of health. I joke (but am serious) that it is indeed a miracle that God seems to really guide the church - despite all foolishness of the humans he has put in charge! Since way back. I am very grateful that I am not in charge! I too - would act foolish and I would be crushed in heart at my inevitable failures and such. It is a good thing that Jesus does not need the church at all - to do his work. The church (in its human aspects) is a gift and not a necessity. The War has been won already! What remains is that each person now be formed to the extent that his free will allows God to do so.

We are lucky, in as much as you and I have no authority - the Good Lord will not hold us to account for our errors on these matters. You and I, we teach no one. We discuss and we talk from the heart. On the same hand we are free to fulfil everyman's need to speak what we may think we see as the truth and if another man recognise it - it is God's good will that it be so. God will sort out what is wheat and what is foolishness on our part. He hears a mix of what we intended, he desired to hear, and what God wants him to hear. As long as our heart is honset and good intention - the results are not our and and it is not too much of our buiness of how the Lord may draw the good from us - for another.

Anyways� I begin to digress as usual.

Your points are well taken in the context I now understand.

You are a good man Alex. If the Good Lord seems to allow you to be uncomfortable and often battered - He does so because He is forming you for himself. It is pressure which transforms coal into a diamond. If I can be poetic for a moment, I would say that the Good Lord has told me about you and He knows your good heart will not fail as he goes about His business of forming you. If I were a poet - that is what I would say.

A good spiritual director once said "Drop all regrets of the past and all expectations of the future. You know not where the wind has come from and you know not where it goes to. Taking care of today is enough for you."

Now that I have given you a compliment - please, continue to be yourself with me. I prefer an honest man to one who agrees with me.

-ray

Alex... I did not mean my last post to be condescending. It merely represents that I often find great value in listening to you even if I at first do not agree.

-ray

Dear Rayk,

Who said you were "condescending?"

Not I, Big Guy!

Benedicat Tuus Deus Omnipotens,

+ Pater + et Filius + et Spiritus Sanctus - Amen!

Alex

Bless!

Forgive me for being so slow to answer this!

Yes, I have e-mailed Archbishop Kyrill of ROCOR and received his answer:

Gaudior, who has been blessed to have been annointed several times by the myrrh from this icon, with prayers for your health

Dear Gaudior,

Who is Archbishop Kyrill and which is his diocese?

Thanks!

Tony

Tony, forgive me for being unclear!

Archbishop KYRILL, San Francisco and Western American Diocese. ROCOR

Gaudior, in clarification

Father Elias Warnke, before joining ROCOR was pastor on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in LaPorte, Indiana. This is where a Myrrh Streaming Crucifix-icon was revealed in (I think) 1994. I was witness to this, and was annointed with the myrrh. The UGCC priest from Mishawaka, IN, also went to visit the Icon and assisted Father Warnke with annointing people with the Myrrh

As the story goes, Fr. Elias and a number of parishioners wound up in a conflict over how much effort should be made regarding possible financial gains with the crucifix.

The disagreement ended up heated, and some parishioner threw a flashlight at Fr. Elias, hitting him in the chest. (He was wearing vestments at this time). The crucifix then stopped its Myrrh streaming.

From my understanding Fr. Elias left the UOA parish and started working with a Antiochian parish in Michigan City, IN. This parish was without priest for many years.

With the blessing of Met. PHILIP the parish transferred to the ROCOR.

Also from second hand reports, (I know people who have seen this icon, although I have not myself,) this icon is a copy from St. Isaac of Syria Skete.

Father Elias mounted a relic of St. Nicholas in the lower right hand corner of the icon. The relic is believed to be a fragment of skull from the forehead.

I heard from two unrelated sources that, a short time after Father mounted the relic in the icon, it started streaming Myrrh also. After initial "here we go agains" Father contacted Archbishop ALIPY in Chicago who instructed him to keep the story out of the press.

Archbishop ALIPY kept the icon with him in Chicago for period of time, I don't know how long. I also do not know if he made an "official" ruling on the authenticity of the myrrh streaming, but he definately did not forbid it's public veneration.

I have also heard of physical cures associated with the icon.

And, the myrrh streams from the forehead of St. Nicholas on the icon.

Please correct me if I have posted any inaccurate information. This took place almost ten years ago, and like I said, I received some of the information second handedly.

With best wishes to All!
Stefan-Ivan

Thanks Gaudior. I guess ROCOR has not updated their site [russianorthodoxchurch.ws] in a while as there he appears as bishop still. I searched the news to see if I could find news of him being made archbishop but couldn't. Do you know when this happened?

Thanks!

Tony

Dear Tony,

I have no idea, as on their website he most certainly DOES appear as Bishop, but in his e-mail to me, (copied, verbatim), he signed Archbishop. And so, I copied, Archbishop, on the assumption that he knows his own title.

Gaudior, who is not going to meddle with bishops.

Dear Tony,

Captions on this ROCOR Diocese News refer to him as Archbishop KYRILL...nice pics with Cossacks...

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/01newstucture/pagesen/news04/allmartyrsinmulano.html

Gaudior, hoping that allays any confusion

This is very interesting - the same Priest has twice been blessed by contact with 2 such very extraordinary happenings .

Not only has there been two of these happenings they have actually been in 2 different Jurisdictions - first Ukranian Orthodoxy and then ROCOR.

Truly God gives his Blessing and favours to all no matter what the jurisdiction.

Anhelyna

Further to the Coptic myrrh streaming icons I menitoned earlier, I've found that the parish has a web site and a page dedicated to the miracle [stmarkcoccleveland.org] .

Oύτις ημιν φιλει ου φροντίδα | Nemo nos diliget non curamus

Dear KO63AP,

Very nice information...

Thanks for posting it.

Gaudior, thinking of someone it will interest greatly.

Right you are. No matter the particular church. We all would do well to note that.

I have been exposed to this type of thing several times in 30 years, it has dropped in my lap enough that I had to do a little research at the same time. I wrote a rather long post on this subject but my computer crashed and it was all lost. I took the hint and did not re-write it.

These things are always, always, if genuine, in association with a spiritual person who is in the illuminative stages (Purgative, Illuminative, Unitive). It is not always easy to determine who the person is... and you can bet it is usually not the person whom everyone thinks it is. All the public attention goes onto phenomena itself while God wished to hide the real person with whom the event is really associated to. Trust me... while it may seem to be associated with this one priest (and it very well may be) it is more likely that it is really associated with someone that he knows and the Good Lord has the veil over our eyes so that we do not disturb what he is doing with His child. In fact, I can almost guarantee that this event has a direct association with someone that he knows - but he will not violate the situation by making that person public.

Let me be clear - the event does not happen in order that someone might expereince it and be blessed - the event has taken place because someone (we know not who right now) is in the spiritual stages of illumination. There is a bit more to it but that is sufficient to know.

We call them �favors� and they are - to us - but to the spiritual person (whom they are really for) they are a preparation... nourishment... meant to support them to endure trails and further purgation in the near future. As a rule �the brighter the light - the darker the night" (praphrased from St. John of The Cross).

When these events are genuine, we can thank some hidden soul of whom his or her dedication to God has already cost him dearly. It is good that we ask the Lord to have this selected, and hidden soul pray for us. We need not know that persons name or what they look like - all we need know is that they exist. In fact if we encouter something like this (that is genuine) we have now come into a bit of a spiritual communion with that person and what they endure is also for us. Thier prayers for us are as beneficial as Job's were for his three friends. This 'person' may already be praying for you. This is the way that God does it.

-ray