www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Weeping Icons And Statues

I have a vial of "100% pure myrrh" from the "wonderworking icon of Saint Nicholas". It is EXTREMELY fragrant. This icon has been in the possession of the ROCOR priest, Fr. Elias Warnke. Does anyone know if this flow of myrrh has been authenticated by the hierarchs of ROCOR? There seem to be some of the opinion that this entire event has been fabricated by Fr. Elias. Any thoughts?
Silouan, monk

Bless, Father Silouan,

If the Church has approved the miracle-working icon, it is no fabrication!

Alex

Two Lungs way back at the beginning of this thread posted a bit from the UGCC Site which has intrigued me greatly

I'm sure this is a very worthy thing to do - but as a Latin I am somewhat perplexed here.

I have gained a lot of knowledge since first finding my way to this Board and lots of , at times , seemingly unconnected bits of information have been stored away in my head and pop up at odd times. And , believe it or not , this was one of those times.

Statues ??? Forgive me please , I mean no offence , but aren't statues 3 dimensional representations of things that in Eastern Spirituality should not be represented in such a fashion ?

You have so many wonderful Icons why place a Statue in a public place ?

I cannot imagine a more Western/Latin Shrine than Lourdes - and in the original Ukranian Chapel there - inside the Rosary Basilica [ which is full of Latin representations of the Mysteries of the Rosary ] there are no Statues - just a beautiful Icon of the Blessed Virgin.

Please could someone explain why two organisations , and yes I know that one is a Religious Order, though I know nothing about the other group named, should want to erect a very Western / Latin STATUE .


Anhelyna - who is scratching her head over this one

Dear Anhelyna,

Oh, you have the Basilian Order confused with the Eastern Church!!

Alex

Dear Alex,

Nasser preceeded Sadat.

I'm enjoying this thread also. May we all be strengthened in our journey!

In Christ,
Andrew

Speaking of Easterners and Statues, here's my favorite one:

http://www.sandia.gov/ASCI/russia/Images/sightseeing/serafimstatue.jpg

Dave

Dear Alex ,

Do you really thinks so ???? :p

OK - so you have commented on one of the organisations - what about the other ?

And why do this - and everyone knows of my devotion to our Blessed Mother - so it's not that I am questioning the erction of a statue to Her - the question is why erect a "Religious' Statue at all ?

Anhelyna

Dave - it's a lovely Statue - but why a Statue ?

the increasingly puzzled Anhelyna

Evil western heretical influences I suppose.

Such statues are outdoors (not in church) and are more like religious monuments than icons or devotional images. I've seen numerous pictures of outdoor statues of saints erected by Orthodox. There is a statue of Saint Elizabeth the New-Martyr outside of her Love and Mercy Convent, Saint Vladimir overlooks the Dnipro, Saint Olga sits near the Ukrainian Orthodox Memorial Church in Bound Brook, NJ, in addition to a rather stern statue of Metropolitan Basil Lipviksky. My art teacher is currently making a bronze statue of Taras Shevchenko for a Ukrainian church in Syracuse, NY. I just don't think that an icon would have the same "monumental" quality.

Dave

Here's a photo of Metropolitan Vladimir of that capital city of Ukraine, the name of which incites riots on this Forum, blessing a memorial statue of Saint Vladimir:

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/0109_zimn/011001_3b.jpg

Dear Chtec,

Yes, you are quite right.

Outdoor memorial statues are perfectly fine even with the Orthodox - althought they wouldn't be used for liturgical services by them.

Bound Brook has a statue of (St) Basil Lypkivsky that is quite nice - if he's shown to be stern, you would be too if you had to live through what he did!

Also, the Balkan Orthodox often carve wooden statues of saints that are placed alongside icons of them - I've seen this numerous times and our Macedonian and Bulgarian Orthodox Churches have them.

There are also jewelled Reliquary-Statues of Orthodox Saints in Russia, one of St Dmitry Tsarevich and some others that are honoured and some are even taken in procession.

But if the Basilians and the Kozak group that is working with them are erecting religious memorial statues - do they intend on having liturgical services before them?

And, if so, what are they trying to prove?

As for the name of the capital city of Ukraine, I accept whatever transliteration the Administrator affirms . . .

Alex

I dunno, Alex, the more I look, the more I see evidence that even Orthodox will hold services near such outdoor statues.

While looking for the above photo of the St. Vladimir statue, I found other photos showing services by statues among the MP in Ukraine:

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/index.php?module=My_eGallery&do=showgall&gid=8&p=

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/gorka/gorka.html

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/old/gallery/don/don.html

Also, I believe that during the annual St. Thomas Sunday events in South Bound Brook they hold a Panachida for the repose of Metropolitan Basil by his statue. Here is a quote from this [ukrainianorthodoxchurchusa.org] article:

"Archbishop Antony led prayers at the graves of the other nine Ukrainian Orthodox Bishops interred at our cemetery and at the grave of the founder of United Ukrainian Orthodox Sisterhoods, Lesia Ivchenko, the monument to Metropolitan Vasyl (Lypkivsky) and at the monument to the women and children who perished in the genocidal famine, established by the United Sisterhoods."

Maybe it's just a Ukrainian thing?

Dave

Dear Chtec,

Holding services by the statues - yes, of course.

But the statues themselves would not, for the Orthodox, be a focus of any cult as icons would.

Alex

Andrew

I've never been inside St Nicholas Albanian Orthodox Church, but I have driven by it. The icon there, The Guiding Mother of God began shedding what appeared to be tears in December of 1986. The Chicago area has had 2 other similar occurences in the last 20 years. In May of 1984, the 39 inch statue of the Rosa Mystica at St John of God RC parish also began shedding what appeared to be tears. The church's custodian tasted them, and said they were salty. The following month a young man with a history of mental illness, who actually called himself Ed "The Icon Killer" Kelly opened fire on the statue with a pistol while several people were nearby. The statue was hit twice, but no one was injured. The church's pastor, Father Raymond Jasinski said that a few years later when Kelly was released from a mental institution he had become a devout Catholic. In April of 1994 another icon (The Blessed Virgin and Mother of God) began shedding what appeared to be tears, at St George Antiochian Orthodox Church in the Chicago suburb of Cicero. In all three instances the occurences attracted massive crowds.

Ah... Now see how well I did at relaxing from this board? I think I had a full week or more of not being here� and I actually got some work done!

Alex, while I do see some reasonableness to your history of Roman Catholic devotions, someone might think that you were assuming that only the older devotions of the East are legitimate and Liturgical� while any newer devotions of the West (Novenas, rosary, the Way of the Cross, and 40 hours Devotion in front of the Eucharist) - being Roman Catholic and �substitutions� for the more legitimate devotions of the East.

I would not really agree with that. I would guess that this was not your intended meaning.

I would be wasting my time to try to explain to some Eastern members who call Roman Catholics �Latins� and assume anything �Latinised� to be a corruption. Note that I did not say you were one of them. I just decline to explain more on the RC devotions here and now.

The East has its ways and the West has its ways (some shared with the East) but I would not say that the further development of devotions in the West are substitutes for the older Eastern and more legitimate (if that is what you are saying). I think we should give some credit to the unique ways of the particular churches and rites and devotions through out the Catholic (universal) church and the different cultures it must express the gospel to. In my mind nether the East nor West has the 'better' devotions.

When it comes right down to it - I find that both the East and the West have a similar view and experience with private revelations� and the faithful of both vary in their reaction to such things. Membership in numbers being what it is - the percent of Orthodox or Catholics going to these things is about the same even if the East would prefer to believe its members do not and Catholics are out of control.

Again.. more Catholics go after apparitions and such because there are simply - more Catholics. A percentage in numbers is the fact and the reality of that.

Private revelation comes in many forms and not in apparitions alone. Even so, the East has its share of apparitions. Currently Mary seems to be appearing all around the Ukraine and thousands have witnessed. I do not know much about it yet and I am not really tracking it or anything. Who knows - I am not there to judge.

The East has also been well feed with private revelations. The Philokalia is sprinkled with moments of private revelation as also the Ladder of Divine Ascent by Climuacus and the lives of the desert fathers - to name just a couple of sources which have been instrumental in the formation of Eastern spirituality. The monastic clothing worn by the East was given - of private revelation. Whole monastic communities growing up around some charismatic desert father who was sought out by his reputation of as visionary and supernaturally aided spiritual guidance has often happened. How many times do we read in the desert fathers of some saint appearing to a monk and the lesson imparted to then given to us also�. this is also private revelation and an honored part of the Eastern traditions.

The private revelations of Simeon The New Theologian became - authority theology (similar to Doctor of the Church) and so many more. In more modern times the East is not devoid of such as Mother Macrious (spelling) or the Stigmatic of Syria, the Zeitoun or Asssuit apparitions, The Revelation of the Virgin to Archbishop John at the Orthodox Church of Mother of God Derjavnaya in Russia (1999), apparitions at Constantinople and Pochaiv in the Ukraine, and Litmanova of Slovakia� this has been only a partial list compiled in a few minutes but the Eastern and Orthodox church is not lacking in this type of heavenly food.

Icons tearing, bleeding, exuding oils - the Orthodox church is no stranger to these things and on a whole reacts to them in much the same way as Roman Catholics - the percentages are about the same. Some chase, some ignore, some rebuke, some gain faith.. Etc..

In the recent past of the Eastern Church in communist occupied countries - it would have been very dangerous to speak openly about private revelations - while it has not been so in the West. Eastern press and media is not like Western media - so these do not really go �international� like the sensational Western press likes to do.

If, you are in anyway suggesting that private revelation among Catholics has arisen as a substitution to the real life of the church - nope - not at all. Not in anyway. If the event is genuine it has the opposite effect - it plunges you into the core of the church.

Most of these things burn out very fast, usually, and really attract a very tiny percent to any kind of 'cultish' ways.

I remember seeing the hundreds of crutches lining the walls of the Basilica in Montreal, Brother Andre (you must know!) and they rather turn one right into the life of the Church and Mass - than substitute for it. You leave there with a dedication to regular weekly Mass and daily prayer.

The Catholic church does not, as a rule, just accept any and all private revelation - but in fact discourages them (in practice) This is fact. Very few are accepted and more goes into it than just the question of if the event was genuine or not. The RC authorities automatically distance themselves from any new events such as these - so as to steer way clear of appearing to approve of them. Strict measures are put upon any �seer� and note is taken if visionaries disregard the guidance of the church when it places restriction upon these people.

Of course not all such events are genuine, and even genuine events may go bad or be handled badly and no private revelation is necessary to faith. But if some event is genuine and handled properly it does become a gift of faith for some - and we should not belittle His gifts nor those to whom He gives them. But I can certainly understand the Orthodox hesitation to go to a Catholic �thing� and the liberty to go to an �Orthodox� thing. Apparently that �political� hesitation is more here in Roman Catholic country than in the older Eastern countries where there may be more Orthodox and Muslims going to �Catholic� apparitions than Catholics.

People will be people.

-ray