www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Aliturgical days in the Great Fast

Hello everybody! I'm a Byzantine Catholic but I can usually only get to a Byzantine liturgy on the weekends. Sometimes I like to go to a Roman mass or two during the week, because I have been told that it is good to receive our Lord in Holy Communion frequently. However, I read on the new calendar for our eparchy that we don't celebrate the Divine Liturgy on weekdays during the Great Fast, only the Presanctified Liturgy. Obviously my Roman friends do not have a Presanctified Liturgy. Is it okay for me to keep going to Mass with them during Lent?

Yup. But the best is to maintain the spirituality and liturgics of our Church.

If you feel the need to liturgicize on a given day, then participate in the Presanctified. If you can't participate in the Presanctified, then go where-ever you can. (BUT: say our prayers. Not theirs.)

This is NOT discrimination, it is merely a suggestion that the heart-rhythm of our approach is incredibly rich and that we can survive with it, either 'officially' or 'unofficially'. Sure, if necessary, go to a Roman service; but: make sure that you continue to follow our calendar and our practices.

Blessings!

John,

I concur with Dr. John. The only way to be Byzantine is to be Byzantine. Maintaining our unique traditions and spirituality can require a dedicated effort. Especially in situations like yours, where Roman Liturgies and devotions are near and convenient and the majority of your friends are Roman. Why not attend Lenten Hours, Vespers or Presanctified at an Orthodox Church or with the Orthodox Christian Fellowship at Penn State (814-867-9683)? They meet Monday 9:00 p.m. at the All-Faith Chapel. And invite your Roman friends. I am sure you are already aware Byzantine Divine Litugy is Sunday 2:15 p.m. at Meditation Chapel. Maybe the priest who celebrates Liturgy would be willing to celebrate Presanctified on Wednesdays. Also check out Holy Trinity Orthodox Church's website: http://www.oca.org/pages/directory/listing.asp?KEY=OCA-WP-STAHTM

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Lance ]

Once upon a time, the St. John Chrysostom Byzantine Catholic Community at Penn State had the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts EVERY WEDNESDAY evening during the Great Fast.

Aaaah, nostalgia...

Impressive. In Ottawa at Sts. Joachim and Anna Chapel they have it every day (in immitation of the Kiev Caves Monastery Typikon), but I guess you have to be really "gung-ho" (sp?) to be able to keep up with that.

Sorry to get off topic: Does anyone know of Orthodox or Byzantine Catholic student groups in downtown Toronto?

Daniil

If the above recommendations don't work out, perhaps you could follow those that you can (like praying "our prayers"), and go to Mass on Wednesdays and/or Fridays and receive Communion. Seems like a viable option to me if the others don't work...but try them first!

Thanks everyone for the sound advice! Yes, we do have a wonderful and holy priest, Fr. Voss, who comes to say the Liturgy for us on Sundays. But I don't want to bother him about Wednesdays because he has to work very hard as it is (he has two other parishes), and we have rather few Byzantines here even on Sundays. I will try to do something extra that is Byzantine during the week -- actually the Orthodox vespers sound like a good idea, I hadn't thought of that. Tthanks again!

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: JohnDziak ]

By my calcuations ~10 years ago, there would have been at least 300 Byzantine Catholic undergraduate students at Penn State at any given time. The school's even larger now.

A friend of mine (she and I were the cantors on campus) who was a teacher at Our Lady of Victory RC School in State College told me that judging by conversations she had, perhaps as many as 1/3 or 1/2 the families in the parish (now there are 2 RC parishes in town) had at least one parent who was Byzantine Catholic. The town's even larger now.

Father Mike Mokris was almost 70 years old, had two parishes (which are both 25-30 miles away from campus and each other), and served Liturgy on campus every Sunday and Presanctified every Greatfast Wednesday evening.

Something doesn't add up. I'm glad to hear you're involved though, John. Are you a student or permanent resident?

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Once upon a short time ago, we had one Liturgy in the day...and Orthros....and Vespers....and no "Saturday Mass (Liturgy)". We once had strong monastics and priests. We didn't have a truncated Liturgy, but a full fleshed out marvel of liturgical majesty (only ONCE a day) with every petition and "Kyrie Eleison" and "redundant repitition" you can think of.....We also had THE SPOON instead of intinction! Akh ya Franj, intu wa microbe-kun!

Ah yes and let's not forget, we also had an Emperor! :-) To add to the monarchist prayer thread, Holy Emperor Martyr Constantine XI Paleologus, pray for us! (and wake up soon....)

Imperial Majesty Haille Sellasie, pray for us. (Let's not forget him)....and give those Rastfarians a bump on the noggin for using you as an excuse for monstrous blasphemy.

So much gone in so few a number of decades, Rich, old boy. Please excuse the raving. Friday fast does strange things to the nostalgic brain sometimes.

In IC XC
Samer

Dear Samer,

I don't know if the Ethiopian Orthodox Church will canonize Heile Selassie, but there is a very active cult in his honour.

People have actually reported conversions through his intercession.

The Ethiopians canonize by building a church in honour of the new saint. We canonize in other ways, but building a church in honour of our new saints is also part of our tradition.

Let's see if one is built to Heile Selassie!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr John:
(BUT: say our prayers. Not theirs.)
Isn't this a bit condenscending?
What if a Latin Catholic showed up to a Byzantine Presanctified Liturgy and prayed with a Latin missal and rosary? The overwhelming response would be something like "they should have followed the rich liturgical tradition of the East and not appear to be prideful by sticking out."

MK

Dear John,
Christ is among us!
Thank God our hierarchs have finally insisted on the restoration of aliturgical days during the Great Fast.
If you can, request a copy of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts for your personal meditation during the Great Fast. You may wish to try the Byzantine discipline of an Eucharistic Fast. By this I mean that you should actually NOT receive the Eucharist during as a means of intensifying the Great Fast. Of Course, ask you spiritual Father first.
My the journey through the Great Fast bring you many blessings.
the unworthy priest, Vladimir

Yup. But the best is to maintain the spirituality and liturgics of our Church.... make sure that you continue to follow our calendar and our practices.

We're on the same page here.

Why not attend Lenten Hours, Vespers or Presanctified at an Orthodox Church or with the Orthodox Christian Fellowship at Penn State (814-867-9683)?

YES!

If the above recommendations don't work out, perhaps you could follow those that you can (like praying "our prayers"), and go to Mass on Wednesdays and/or Fridays and receive Communion. Seems like a viable option to me if the others don't work...but try them first!

Sounds like a plan. And as a last resort, it still is in the spirit of the rite.

actually the Orthodox vespers sound like a good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

"Hadn't thought of that.' (Shaking head.) I'm not criticizing you, John — heavens, no! — but a mindset in Byzantine Catholic life and catechesis that treats its mother Church like it doesn't exist.

Samer, amin', аминь, amen!

What if a Latin Catholic showed up to a Byzantine Presanctified Liturgy and prayed with a Latin missal and rosary?

You are what you are. Such are holy and traditional. If the person is a visitor to the church and not a regular (in the latter case some catechesis is in order, in which that person would have to decide if s/he really wants to be Byzantine), and if this person isn't disrupting the service in any way, then fine!

You may wish to try the Byzantine discipline of an Eucharistic Fast. By this I mean that you should actually NOT receive the Eucharist during as a means of intensifying the Great Fast. Of Course, ask your spiritual Father first.

Премудрость, прости! Wonderful. Very wise, Father. Bless.

http://oldworldrus.com

Sounds like wrong-headed 19th century, scholastic-influenced anti-patristic mumbo jumbo to me. How can NOT receiving God intensify your communion with God???

anastasios

Thanks everyone for all the thoughtful advice. I didn't mean to slight the Orthodox church with "hadn't thought of that" -- I had only been thinking in terms of Mass and not in terms of Vespers, so I literally hadn't thought of that.

I think I can understand the idea behind a "Eucharistic fast" -- maybe it is meant to remind us about the sorrow of the Apostles and the Blessed Mother when the Lord was taken away from them. (And psychologically, people are more interested in things when they are told they cannot have them!) On the other hand, many Romans try to get to Mass more often and receive Communion more often during Lent, because they feel that this will help them become more holy. I'm going to continue to receive the Eucharist at least on Sundays because that is very important to me. I guess different people have different spiritual needs.

Actually, I love both the Roman and the Byzantine rites. One side of my family is Roman and the other Byzantine so I am kind of involved with both. I don't have very much familiarity with the Orthodox Church because there wasn't any Orthodox parish in the town where I grew up. But I will make sure to get to Vespers and then maybe I will become more familiar with that part of my heritage. I'm finding that everything is much more complicated than it first seems!

Anyway, I hope everyone has a blessed Great Fast, however you commemorate it.

Thanks again!

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: JohnDziak ]