www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Aliturgical days in the Great Fast

Admin, I think the documentation is in Fr. David's favor regarding the order of the general received tradition. But at least in the later typikons, we have to acknowledge the heavy influence of the Sabbaitic monastic elements.

Violakis attemtped to resolve this by simply moving the Annunciation to Bright Week to deal with this. That created its own problems.

But if we could get a rare snapshot of the catherdral practice for this day of liturgical convergence, perhaps a schema including a morning celebration of the Divine Liturgy was indeed present.

This seems much more "pastorally" sensible on a parish level. I think it is a bit of a stretch to say this never existed, since honestly we do not know what the full cathedral order was on rare convergent days like this.

While I see Fr. Dave's reasoning and the historical development of that practice, I find myself actually leaning more towards the cycle of fast/feast in this way, i.e. with a morning Divine Liturgy to celebrate the Annunciation, transitioning into the Great Friday Vespers.

The following question seem to be apparent: Vespers stikhera for the Annunciation have been sung on Holy Thursday evening, intercalated with those of the Triod. So is it the feast or not?

Even on those "fasting vigils" of Christmas and Theophany, that is the case, that the feast is inaugerated with a Vesperal service (be it Vespers or a Vesperal Divine Liturgy). So is it the feast or not?

So that leads to the next question. Since there is no post-festal or Apodosis, the feast ends at the Vespers of the next day, which liturgically transitions to the next day. So after Vespers on the day itself, since this feast is without Apodosis, it is no longer liturgically speaking that day anymore.

So, for example, at our parish we will have sung the Annunciation Stikhera on Holy Thursday evening, along with those of the Triod. We follow Holy Thursday with the anticipated Strasti Matins (separated by a light Lenten meal). So we will have Annunciation Gospel reading and other propers with the Strasti Matins on Great and Holy Friday.

Then we will jump with a seeming liturgical non sequitor to the next day, and have part of Vespers again and the Liturgy on the liturgical day after its actual commemoration, and since it has no Apodosis, outside of its seemingly proper observance.

It seems, perhaps at least to my uninformed mind, that one sensible proposal would be to have Vespers and Liturgy of St. Basil as they are on Thursday evening, with the stikhera for both the Annunciation and from the Triod. Strasti Matins, as usual, with the Gosepl of the feast and other propers interspersed with the Passion Matins propers as provided in the Typikon.

Then crown the commemoration of the Annunciation with a morning Divine Liturgy. After the DL, sometime during the day, have the Royal Hours with the mixed troparia and kontakia. On yet another tangent, Fr. Petras' Typikon does not necessarily agree with some Russian typikons on how to do this; they vary the Kontakion of Good Friday at the 3rd and 9th Hours, with that of the Annunciation at the 1st and 6th Hour, etc. while Fr. Petras indicates both kontakia at every Hour. Generally in the Byzantine tradition at Little Hours there is only one Kontakion followed by the 40X Kyrie Eleison, and even on converging feast days the kontakia are alternated between the various Hours.

Then after Royal Hours, have the Vespers with the Procession of the Plaschanytsya and so on with Great Friday and Holy Saturday.

I guess that begs another question - does this come so often that we really need to worry about it? But it keeps the armchair liturgists interested around here.

And we should not forget the wonderful maxim of Dom Lambert of blessed memory, which indeed rings true.

Diak,

Thank you for your posts. Yes, �never� is probably too strong. I am sure it was done somewhere. Yet it is certainly not part of the �received tradition�, the tradition which the Liturgical Instruction tells us to imitate. I wish now I had paid more attention to my pastor when I was growing up (he is with the Lord now). He told me once that when, once the occasion of Good Friday falling on the feast of the Annunciation, he celebrated �Mass in the morning and then the Burial Vespers at night�. He was in the �pro-Latin� crowd of those days, yet I think that that solution was the best pastoral approach. The taking of the Eucharist is always the highlight and end of the day�s liturgical celebrations. Taking the Eucharist and then embarking upon a burial procession and venerating the tomb is, at best, rather awkward.

Yes, it is the feast. Since the Menaion day runs from sunset to sunset the Feast of the Annunciation begins at Vespers. When Holy Friday falls on the Feast of the Annunciation the feast runs from the Vespers and Basil Liturgy on Thursday evening through Vespers ending March 25th. At the Vespers and Basil Liturgy on Thursday evening the stichera for the Annunciation are interspersed with those of the Triodion and the Old Testament readings for the Annunciation are prescribed. [A similar interweaving occurs on Thursday evening at Strasti Matins and the Annunciation Gospel is the first Gospel to be proclaimed.]

Agreed. If the Vespers and Divine Liturgy is celebrated after sunset on March 25th, it is actually March 26th according to the Menaion. Technically speaking, when this custom is followed there is no Divine Liturgy on March 25th since it is actually celebrated on March 26th, on a day that is not even a post-festive day of the feast.

I think your mind is quite informed (and most especially since we agree! ).

This model has the advantage keeps the same format as on Christmas and Theophany.

I think that we do need to worry about it. Any change sets a precedent for a repeat when this combination of feasts occurs again. We should not readily accept unnecessary and unwarranted revisions to our liturgical tradition that are not in accordance with contemporary practice across the Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox).

Before anyone accuses me of working against the officially promulgated rubrics of our Church I will note that I have a 20 year history of publishing a Vesper and Divine Liturgy book for the Feast of the Annunciation, as it falls on the different days of the Triodion. Even though I have a long history of disagreeing with Father David�s personal interpretation of the Typicon (which has now become official), I have produced booklets that conform to it.

Might I make another point on stability? If you change something even once people notice. If they don�t like it they don�t come back (even if you resume the prior custom with exactness). Change should not be introduced unless absolutely necessary.

Admin

Father David is indisputably correct in asserting that the combination he describes is in accordance with the univocal evidence of the classic editions of the Typicon, and the typica used by the vast majority of the Orthodox world today.
I can also appreciate the argument that trying to combine Good Friday and Annunciation, no matter what order of service one might follow, could be spiritually disconcerting, to put it very mildly. Being an enthusiast of the typicon, it probably wouldn't disturb me all that much, but others may well feel differently.
My practical suggestion for those who find this difficult is to follow the nineteenth-twentieth centuries Greek parochial usage, and transfer Annunciation to Bright Tuesday (or maybe Bright Friday?).
On the other hand, this coincidence of Good Friday and Annunciation is VERY rare, so perhaps those who do enjoy such unusual combinations should be indulged (I think that the last time it happened on the Julian Calendar was 1961, though I may be mistaken).

Incognitus

Our Admin wrote:
"In ten years we have gone from an 11:00 PM service (Matins + DL) with 350+ in attendance to an almost four hour marathon of services with less than a hundred people attending (Vespers + Basil DL + Procession + Matins + Basket Blessing). And no, the people are not flocking to the morning Liturgies. Other parishes report the same results. Rescheduling and forcing together services which did not develop together only succeeds in turning away the faithful."

I noticed in the "Eastern Catholic Life" the same schedule for the Cathedral in Passaic. Considering the neighborhood and the probable median age of the congregation, how many people actually attend, or stay all the way through, this innovative service? I know that I would not, and I'm rather fond of long services. ;-)

John

The ordo Fr. David gives is also consistent with the rubrics in the Mikita Typikon that were compiled (but not written) by Bishop Basil Popovich of Uzhorod-Munkacevo in 1855. So, Fr. David is not introducing anything new into Ruthenian practice.

As I think we've already established in this thread, when the Annunciation falls on a Lenten weekday, the Typikon sets the Liturgy in conjunction with Vespers. It is not appointed as an independant celebration (except in modern Greek practice and, as Diak noted, they'll move the feast if it falls on Great Friday). If the Typikon joins the Burial Vespers and the Annunciation Divine Liturgy, and since it is not the Ruthenian practice to have the Burial Vespers in the morning (as some, but not all, Greeks do), I really don't see what the problem is with what was promulgated in the Ruthenian Eparchies!

I also don't see what is unpastoral about this Vesperal Liturgy Order. Face it, most people only come to church once on Great Friday; for the Ruthenians, most people come to the Burial Vespers. It seems that more people will get to participate in this Liturgy since it is celebrated with Vespers (again, as the Typikon has it).

I'm very surprised that such Ustavniki as Diak and Admin are suggesting that the Typikon NOT be followed in this rare case and that Liturgy be celebrated independantly in the morning!

Dave (who, being on the Old Paschalion and the New Menaion, can never have this double celebration!)

Our unknown friend, and our known Father David are in agreement. The typicon instructs that Vespers be joined to the Divine Liturgy. Nothing disputed here, by anyone, as far as I know. The Administrator also agrees!

What is not certain, is that this was an 'evening' service. Yes, Vespers is an evening service, but it was celebrated in the morning during Great Week, ....as morning Matins was anticipated to the evening before.

So the typicon expects that Vespers and the Divine Liturgy be celebrated in the morning of Great Friday/Annunciation. The procession and burial service was not forseen to take place with this morning service.

The new innovation, is

1. moving this service to the evening
2. combining it with the procession and burial service

Has combining the Festal Vesperal Liturgy of the Annunciation (rightly held when it falls in Great Week) with the evening burial service and procession, ever been suggested by any typicon?

I don't think so, I don't think it is a good idea.

Nick

The Burial/Bringing Out of the Shroud (either with or without an outside procession) takes place at Vespers on Great Friday. This Vespers is combined with Liturgy on Annunciation. This is not an innovation. It is exactly what is specified in the Mikita Typikon; I think that the St. Sabbas typikon gives the same order, as witnessed by (I think, since I don't have this one in my dorm room either!) "The Festal Menaion" by Bp. Kallistos Ware.

How many Ruthenian (or Russian, or Ukrainian, or other ethnicity) parishes celebrate the Vespers of Great and Holy Friday in the morning? As far as I am aware, only (some) Greeks celebrate the Royal Hours and Great Vespers as an aggregate in the morning. Everybody else does it in the afternoon or evening. I don't think that the Mukacevite Ruthenians (how's that for a term :p ) ever did the Vespers on the morning of Great and Holy Friday.

Dave

Dear Dave,

When I look at the Triodion, it is my understanding that the bringing out of the shroud, 'without' an outside procession, symbolizes the taking down of the saviour from the cross, and his preparation for burial.

The burial procession 'with' an outside procession, and the entombment, takes place at the Great Doxology of Matins (actually Saturday morning's Matins service) anticipated to Friday evening.

When Vespers and the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on Friday morning, the burial procession and entombment takes place (as usual) at the Great Doxology of Matins on Friday evening.

Nick

Though I admit the "as usual" is not "usual".
I don't know of anyone who does the Matins procession as the burial procession and entombment service. The "Burial" Vespers has expanded its meaning, and become the entombment service.

But when you read the Triodion, do you think the content of the hymns of the Vespers and Matins services, shows that the entombment service was not part of the Vespers?

It is only the occurance of the Annunciation, and the instruction to hold a Vesperal Liturgy, that

1. makes us look carefully at the texts
2. consider if the texts shed light on the rituals.

Having the outdoor Burial Procession at Vespers on Great and Holy Friday is common Ruthenian (Carpatho-Rusyn and Western Ukrainian) practice. The Rusyns do the procession during the singing of the troparion "Noble Joseph;" Ukrainians do it during the singing of the Aposticha (right?).

Dave

Dear-in-Christ Administrator,

I would be happy to send you photocopies of the parts of the Typikon that deal with this (f you don't have those sources already)and perhaps you can produce another interpretation. The language is really quite simple and straightforward, I cannot see any "personal interpretation" whatsoever on Fr. David's part.

You seem to be advocating that the prescriptions of the typika in question be disregarded.

Tony

Tony,

Yes, I would appreciate that. As I have stated several times, the various typicons I have seen prescribe the Vespers and Divine Liturgy service for this day, and all the other Byzantine Churches have a �received tradition� of celebrating this service in the morning. Furthermore, they do not add the procession with the Burial Shroud after the Divine Liturgy. What I wish to see is proof that the typicons of the other Byzantine Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) prescribe this Vesper / Divine Liturgy / Procession with the Burial Shroud as a single service and that these Churches have a �received tradition� of celebrating this in the evening.

To repeat, the personal interpretation I see here is in changing the �received tradition� by moving the Divine Liturgy from the morning to the evening, and the addition of the Procession with the Burial Shroud to the Divine Liturgy. [To this I will add the mandatory placement of the Sacramental Anointing into the Presanctified of Holy Wednesday rather then the traditional Service of Holy Anointing (which is making a comeback in our Church); the mandatory moving of the Vespers and Basil Divine Liturgy of Holy Saturday from earlier in the day to the evening and the mandatory addition of the Pascha Matins immediately following the Basil DL; etc.] If we are to depart from the letter of the Typicon and our Ruthenian �received tradition� in celebrating these Divine Services we should parallel the usage of the other Byzantine Churches, as directed by the Liturgical Instruction.

Admin

Administrator,

What constitutes "received tradition" in this case? The holy week services were all basically anticipated. If it is found that the "received tradition" is in conflict with the Typikon which will prevail?

What is clear is that one does not eat on Holy and Great Friday yet if one must it is to be after sunset. Since the liturgy breaks the fast this seems to be part of the way the liturgical day is set up. In the entry for March 25 when it collides with Great Friday in the Russian Tpikon is says that vespers begins before the 8th hour of the day (2pm?).

The first mention of the plashchanitsa I see in the Russian Sabbatie typikon is at matins on Holy Saturday. It seems the Ruthenian custom is a local one although obviously not exclusively.

I don't have the Mikita typikon handy at this moment but I can get to it later. I don't expect to find anything very different there but if anyone else has access to it it would be interesting to see what is prescribed.

So, how should this Holy and Great Friday falling on March 25th the Annunciation be set up liturgically in your opinion?

I presume this [archeparchy.ca] has been seen but if it hasn't, there it is.

Also, this. [home.catholicweb.com]