www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West This is so uplifting!

Laudetur Iesus Christus!

I'm proud to give you this link:
http://www.christianitas.pl/wydarzenia/swiecenia.html

It's a series of photos taken during ordinations in Seminarium Internationale Sancti Petri in Wigratzbad, Germany.
The bishop was His Grace Archbishop Marian Przykucki from Poland and among newly ordained deacons and priests of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter there was another Pole, Fr. Tomasz Dawidowski!

Any comments and impressions from my Eastern Catholic Brothers and Sisters are most welcome!

Pax vobiscum,
Stanislaw

Dear Stanislaw,

It is off-topic as it has nothing per se to do with Byzantine Catholicism but yes, it is uplifting. Rather than fight each other over prejudices and �which Church is better�, the Orthodox-minded Byzantine Catholics (and the Orthodox themselves) and the Latin traditionalists should join forces in both the culture wars vs. the secular world and sweeping the entire Catholic Church, particularly the Roman, clean of Modernism.

Serge

<a href="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</a>

Well, I noticed what I think Stanislaw meant: there were two large icon ripidia. The 'icon not painted by human hands' and the Theotokos. What kinda-sorta amused me was that they were on the wrong sides. Oh well, at least there was a nod to the customs of the East. I was wondering if this ordination (sorry, I can't read Polish) took place in an area adjacent to Byzantine territory, and hence the icons? I must admit I haven't seen 'fiddlebacks' since watching "Going My Way" when I had the flu.

Blessings!

Dear Rusnak,

I could not agree with you more! Great remarks!
My best fraternal greetings!

Dr John,

yes, I have noticed that mistake. Accordingly to Byzantine tradition the painting of Christ should be placed on the right side of the tsarskiye vrota and the Blessed Virgin's icon should be on the left.

The ordinations took place in the F.S.S.P.'s Seminary in Wigratzbad, Germany. It is a very small town, close to the point where German, French and Swiss borders meet. Not very Byzantine neighbourhood, I guess.

The icons weren't put there by accident. The FSSP clerics are trained to oppose effectively all this heretical, modernist rubbish that is being spread today in the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore much of their ratio studiorum is reserved for thorough study of the Church Fathers. Emphasis is put on the Early Western Fathers and the Eastern Fathers. All alumni have to learn Latin and Greek very well. Being strong and devoted adherents to the Ancient Roman Rite they have great esteem to the Eastern Rites as well. They are studying them to learn about essential elements of genuine Christian liturgy.
So if I was a bishop or the Pope I would chose those priests to represent the Roman Catholic Church in talks with Eastern Catholic Churches (and Eastern Orthodox, when needed). They would know what they are talking about.

Thanks for feedback from you!

Keeping you all in my prayers,
Stanislaw

Backwards icons - I have a tiny dyptych of the Lord & the Theotokos in my car. Got it for very cheap from (of all places) Augsburg Publishing here in Columbus. I don't make a habit of shopping there, but I visited some years back with my husband who is a convert from Lutheranism, and has fond memoriess of the place. It's backwards. The Lord is on the left, and She who my 4 year old calls "Mama Mary" is on the right. I happened to take it with me on a businness trip some years ago, and it was with me in the rent-a-car when I visited the Monastery. One of the holy monks ribbed me a bit about my backwards icon. I explained very solemnly that the reversal was perfectly proper. I am quite right-handed, but I drive standard transmission cars, so in the car, I generally pray left-handed. The icon simply reflects this situation. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

Very Seriously Yours,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

>>I must admit I haven't seen 'fiddlebacks' since watching "Going My Way" when I had the flu.<<

I saw 'fiddlebacks' down in Haiti during my college visit there from the Josephinum in 1982. It was the only type of Roman vestment at the monastery the nuns had. It was great to see one of our very liberal college priests having to wear it. Chuckle.

Joe

Joe Thur,

Tee hee. Served him right. Maybe it did him good.

Stanislaw,

Had a look at the site today. Beautiful. So what that the icons are backwards? The FSSP�s heart is in the right place. The casual observer and the simple faithful agree with them on the obvious affinity between the medieval/Tridentine Roman and the Orthodox traditions. The icons � the Christ one looks very Russian � do not look out of place.

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-22-2001).]

Tridentine Catholics have indeed been hiding in the catacombs and have gone through much of an ordeal. But this is only bitter medicine that has ultimately had some very strong benefits. Note that these kinds of Catholics come from the same ilk that used to preside over the Roman Church before VatII, the same breed of Latins that were adamant in latinizing us Eastern Catholics, the ones that put us through our own hell for a long time because of their obsession with the "Monarchy of the Roman Church" above all the other particular churches.

But since these Catholics had been "deposed", so to speak, after VatII and tasted their own brand of suffering, I have never seen Catholics more respectful and appreciative of the Eastern churches who are beginning to open an eye to their uniqueness and are recognizing the treasures of the various liturgical rites, that their kind generations ago failed to appreciate and admire and protect. Many see the past errors of Latinizations as well. Most who have no access to the Tridentine Mass prefer to attend an Eastern Liturgy rather than a Pauline Mass, even a reverant one. Some even would try to serve as vanguards against modernism creeping into our churches as well. I know one such fellow who is trying to counter innovations in the local Ukranian parish he attends.

The truly Orthodox Easterns and the Tridentine Latins are polar opposites, but both guard their own priceless traditions and patrimonies of theology, liturgy, and unique spirit, none of which should be excluded from the Universal Church. God works in mysterious ways; now that the Tridentines have had a taste of their own medicine and have ceased being the managers of the Roman Church, suffering their own share of silent persecution, a fraternal bond of respect that was never there before between us is already strong in potential and I believe that a great possibility exists that were a new generation of Tridentines to predominate the Roman Church's hierarchy, the Romans will finally clean house and restore orthodoxy, and the traditional heritage of all the churches may finally co-exist in their pure forms, with no chance of returning to the Latinizations of the past.

I hope my musings do not stray far from what can be considered to be probable future realities. But I share in the same vision that our good friend Serge has presented to us several times before. I was afraid that most of us Easterns were unaware of the existance of these 'underground' Tridentines, and even worse, wanting nothing to do with them, given our bad past. But that Serge suggested what he did, so much akin to the aspirations I myself harbor, doesn't fail to put a smile on my face.

In IC XC
Samer

[This message has been edited by SamB (edited 02-22-2001).]

Sorry, Samer. I just don't accept the proposition that the "tridentines" are now going to learn a lesson because they are being castigated by the so-called 'liberal Novus-Ordo'. Their idea is that the "19th Century Roman way" is best. (It's the same problem that we Byzantines have with 'pick a century; pick a diocese' to determine what is orthodoxly legitimate.)

The traditionalist "tridentine" folks are NOT our allies. Although they appeal to the 'traditionalist' folks in the East (primarily the pilgrims from the West), my firm belief is that they are Quislings. Fifth column folks who ingratiate themselves into the community and then stab us in the back.

With absolutely NO denigration of the spiritual and legitimate pilgrims into the Byzantine community, I suggest that the "we're conservative and retainers-of-all-that-is-old" Roman crowd who seek to ally themselves with our Byzantine communities are actually a poisonous toxin that will eventually kill us with their poison.

They don't venerate 'antiquity' or 'tradition'; they venerate the Romaniak attitude of 'our antiquity is universally true', even if your ancestry/tradition is as old or even older. The general idea is: Screw you.'

We Byzantines are not conservative or liberal. We're a family with a strong sense of our family history. We can fight like cats and dogs, but God help the interloper who tries to divide us. Pittsburgh/Passiac vs. Johnstown vs. OCA. Yeah, a problem. But if you attack ANY one of the group, we'll kick butt cause' they're US.

So, 'our folks': be true to our community. To quote George Washington: "Avoid entangling alliances".

Stay away from the Western folks in general and do whatever we can to bring our own folks into harmony. We have more than enough issues to deal with without getting entangled in the intruigues of the Western fiefdoms.

If the "we love Latin although we don't have a linguistic clue" folks are inveighing against the so-called 'Novus Ordo' K-Mart liturgists, that isn't our problem.

Give 'em a doughnut and a coffee and send them on their way. (Give 'em a kiss if you feel the need.) And suggest that they fight their battles in their own parishes and NOT involve us as allies.

(Lord, sometimes I wish we all still used OCS or Byzantine Greek in the parishes. It would keep out the crazies. I know that it sounds unkind, and I don't mean it that way, but I really resent being used for other folks' political battles.

"Let's go Byzantine 'cause they're t-r-a-d-i-t-i-o-n-a-l ! ! !' And they'll ratify our use of Latin, incense, saint-veneration, etc."


Sorry, tridentine folks, but we aren't tridentine. We're Constantinopolitan with a long history. If the long history seems attractive to you as a validation of "what's old is good" fanclub, sorry to burst your bubble. We aren't that way.

We REALLY care (I mean R E A L L Y care) about about our own and what we need to do to protect our own folks. So don't interfere with who we are. [I've got a couple of friends from North Jersey who will come 'explain things to you'.) As a Greek-American, I'll defend to the death my Ruthenian, Ukrainian, Russian, etc. brethren. And I am absolutely assured that if I were 'attacked' by outsiders, that the Ruthenian, Ukainian, Russian, etc folks would be by my side. Why? Cause we're family!!

Hey: "FAMILY", "it's not just for the Mafia anymore" ")


Blessings!

Dr. John,

I agree with everything you write here and have been saying the same thing for a long time. I myself am a Roman Catholic who has been attending the Byzantine Catholic Church for almost a year. I love the full Eastern Christian patrimony and have embraced Eastern Catholicism rather than rejecting Western Catholcism. I am too young to know much about the Tridentine Mass. I have attended a few and between the NO, Tridentine and Byzantine Divine Liturgy, I love the Byzantine Divine Liturgy the most. The Byzantine Liturgy and spirituality speaks to my soul in ways that the West never has. This is how I feel and don't say one is superior to the other. I know others love the Western tradition just as much and respect that.

Saying all that, I think Vatican II was a good thing for the Eastern Catholic Churches, even though the Tridentines have felt it the other way. Now we have less of the Latin is better attitude. Back in the pre VII days the ultamontanist attitude was in the forefront. I see this attitude in some of the traditionalist RC groups today. One trad RC told me it would be a mortal sin if I attended the Byzantine Liturgy. He knew I was speaking of a parish in communion with Rome. If the SSPX and like minded folks were in charge all the progress we made in the past 30 years to de-latinize would fly out the window (ie they would have the filioque inserted back, statues, rip out iconostasis, mandated rosary) Latin trads are not our allies and if they are having problems with the NO they should stay where they are and reform that, without trying to turn us into them.

In Christ,

Joseph

Sorry, Samer. I just don't accept the proposition that the "tridentines" are now going to learn a lesson because they are being castigated by the so-called 'liberal Novus-Ordo'. Their idea is that the "19th Century Roman way" is best. (It's the same problem that we Byzantines have with 'pick a century; pick a diocese' to determine what is orthodoxly legitimate.)
The traditionalist "tridentine" folks are NOT our allies. Although they appeal to the 'traditionalist' folks in the East (primarily the pilgrims from the West), my firm belief is that they are Quislings. Fifth column folks who ingratiate themselves into the community and then stab us in the back.

The Most Dear and the Most Moderate Dr John!

Your kind post reminds me this old romanita-style wisdom: "Sometimes it is good to drink some cold water before saying a thing - sometimes even INSTEAD of saying it."

"Quisling"?? (Why not "Hitler"?) "S**ewing"?? Are you sure your flu is gone?

I am really (and I mean: really) sorry about your SO bad experience with some pushy, bigheaded traditional Latins, sticking their noses where they are not allowed to.

(BTW: Is your Church miraculously immunized against morons? Don't you know any Eastern ones?)

I do not want to start any arguments, but I think there's something more than deplorable latinizations that you owe to RCC. RC orders, mainly Jesuits, saved or restored many elements of your both Eastern and Catholic identity. (What is wrong with my eyes? Did I see "SJ" letters in the 'Deacon's Door' section?). How about RC priests risking their lives to serve Eastern Catholics and to perform sacraments for them in the Eastern Rites?
Those were all "pre-VaticanII, awful Latin bullies", I guess.

Yes, the Vatican II was a providential thing for all of us. Some were given a bitter lesson of humility. Many learned to appreciate things they thought they were given them once and forever. Unjust way of relating to Eatern Christians was dropped and - in a way - condemned.

I could not agree more with your opinion that everyone should take care about his own family (rite, sui iuris Church) on the first place. "11. Thou shall not instrumentalize your brother for any purpose". This should be obvious for every civilized person.

I have learned these providential lessons well. Some of my colleagues - not so well, I admit.

But I would hesitate to treat some SSPX or North American traditionalist neophytes as a 'core' or even majority of RC traditional movement - just as I would hesitate to treat seriously anybody who simply tries to turn back the time, just like that.


Fraternal greetings in Christ,
Stanislaw

Brother Stanislaw, I thank you for your posting. I only have the utmost respect for the ethnic communities of Roman Catholics who stood up for their existence in the face of well-armed persecution -- whether from Nazis, Communists, or others.

But I beg you to understand those of us in the Catholic East. We are very much like a little field mouse who shares a bed with the oxen of the field. We sleep with one eye open -- always.

Yes, in many ways we are 'traditional'; and yes, we share this way of thinking with certain parts of the Roman Catholic community. But for us, being 'traditional' is not a political statement or a way of validating our existence in the face of opposition. It is a way of knowing who we are spiritually, and using that base as the foundation for further growth. And here lies the difference. Traditionalist Roman Catholics sincerely believe that the protocols of the past represent the route to salvation. The 'tridentine Mass' and the use of Latin, and the old style vestments, etc. is the hallmark of being validly Catholic.

Byzantines believe that the protocols of the past show us where we've been in order to guide us in developing into a community of today and tomorrow. We change. Not randomly, but organically, in harmony with our traditions and under the guidance of our bishops.

In Europe, the Byzantine liturgy was sung in one Slavic language or another (or Greek or Bulgarian, or Albanian, or Arabic, etc.); but once the people had been in America for more than 30 or 40 years, the principle of celebrating in the vernacular caused the liturgy to be celebrated in American English. Yes, the 'old country' language is 'traditional'. But it didn't work for the people. So we switched it. And it scared the crap out of the local Roman Catholic clergy who had to make up answers to their parishoners as to why they were forced to use Latin only.

We had 'priestly families' where a man's son would be ordained a priest. In 1929 we were told: Sorry, you can't do that anymore. The Irish-Americans are getting upset because they were told that priests can't be married. And your legitimate customs might make the Roman bishops look like liars.

And you can't give communion to your babies on the day of their baptism. You have to have a first confession first. That's the 'custom'.

Oh, just forget about the ceremony of crowning the newly married couple. It's just peasant stuff. The priest isn't the minister of Matrimony; it's the couple.

Get rid of the icon screen in the church. Get yourself some statues; they're much cheaper and you'll be clearly identifiable as "Catholic".

What's this stuff about abstaining from meat AND DAIRY products during the Great Lent. Just abstain from meat on Friday; it's much easier and the people will appreciate 'not having to go to confession' for violating the RULE.

Hey, don't bother giving an anointing to the folks who are sick. Just wait until they're ready to die, and call it the 'last rites' so that they'll feel good and co-incidentally lose any hope they have of recovering.

And, of course, educate the priests that they are the hands-and-feet of the bishop, ready not only to go where the bishop tells them, but to avoid becoming personally involved with the people of the parish. Hey, you're Marines!! Buck up and don't fall in love with those folks.

Don't ever set foot in a non-Catholic or Orthodox parish; your very presence will condemn you to hell. Even if it's the funeral of your grandparents. (A Roman Catholic nun told me, as a child, that my mother -- a Greek Orthodox -- 'had a good chance of going to heaven', but no guarantee.) Thanks, Sister!

So, if I have a little problem based upon the idea that the Roman community could literally destroy me (and my compatriots), then I think I've ample historical evidence and proof from the experiences here in America.

If the Roman community decides to hold a civil war between the "We love Trent" and the "We love Vatican II" crowds, then have at it. But don't involve us; we have enough problems of our own trying to re-discover what our legitimate roots are and trying to make them understandable to our peoples, both young and old. We lost more than 100 years of organic development among the people in this country because in our efforts to be true to the Bishop of Rome, we tried to be "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite" rather than who we really are.

We have come to learn that abject surrender to the Roman model (Tridentine or VaticanII) will mean death to us. And may I point out that suicide is a sin.

So, my Polish brother, my hat is off to you and your fellow Poles for the guts you had in using gelding shears on the Communists. And I love your music and venerate your traditions (and your food!!) [I go to Polish restaurants here and in Canada and BEG for Zubrovka. But none is imported from Poland. The best I can get is from a guy named Milefsky in Washington who makes it in his bathtub. I pray before I drink it!!]

So, Brother Stanislaw, please don't consider me a raging anti-Roman-Catholic or an anti-traditionalist. I'm not; but I'm just trying to preserve my own little field mouse self from the field ox who shares the Papal bed.

Best wishes for a blessed Lenten season.

Dear Little Field Mouse,


I think the most important thing to understand here is the character of the changes after "V2 missile" had hit the target.
To use another metaphor: it was very like a tornado. It has destroyed law firm office, the bank, the tax collector's residence (horrray!) but also it torn down the church, the pub and the cinema (boooo!).

So - you can not reasonably argue that absolutely none of the changes were needed.
Many of them were simply necessary.

But when you see how those reformers (or I should rather write: deformers) devastate old, beautiful churches, how they diminish and undermine faith in the Real Presence (communion given in the hand etc.), what do they teach your children, how they f..[beep!] up everything they touch - you just get mad!

You see, it is very, very difficult to tell the people: "You are right to oppose this and this, but this particular reform is OK and it is just silly not to admit it". You can not talk like that with the enraged desperados. They do not see these subtle differences, because they see red.

And so they demand: "Restore EVERYTHING! We do not accept ANY reforms and changes! Who knows (and who cares) which ones really produced all this mess and which ones did not!".

Well, I am rather calm guy and I think I am able to distinguish between things.
But how can I explain anything to a shivering woman who tells me a story about finding the Host in the pocket of her son's trousers? What am I to tell to a guy, who left the church during a sermon ("Man, I've never heard so bizarre things about the Church, about the Eucharist and Sacraments, I didn't want my little girl to listen to that heretical rubbish!").

So I don't think it is just and correct to put "traditionalists" and "modernists" on the same level, as equal rivals in some "civil war".

It is about war between Catholics, just 'Catholics', without any adjectives, and heretical, quasi-Catholic wolves masqueraded as sheep (and sometimes as pastors).

There's a lot of work to be done. Ours should be given the proper instruction: "Listen, those Byzantines are not rebels, destroyers, heretics. They differ from us, but these are their legitimate, millenium-old, venerable traditions. They are fully orthodox, they are traditional to the bone. These folks suffered even more than you to preserve what they hold dear. You know well how one feels when somebody tries to make him happy with reforms and corrections, so leave them alone. And most of all - they have more in common with you in terms of traditional mindset than anybode else in the Universal Church - certainly more than the so called conservative Catholics, whose agenda is to avoid anything that media would call 'extremal' (they belive it is panaceum for all evil)".

I think similarities between us, moderate RC traditionalists and Eastern Catholics, are stronger and theologically more important than the differences.

But I understand and respect your sensitivity, your sui iuris independency, your unique identity.

I guess it wouldn't be wrong to employ Napoleon's tactics: "We march separatedly, but we strike together"... ONLY when REALLY needed.


Sinful, unworthy, dust-eating worm,
Stanislaw


P.S.: Zubrowka - yummmy... I wonder from where Mr. Milefsky gets the straws? You need to put a special, long, thin grass straws into the bottle. "Zubr" is an extincting wild animal similar to your buffalo. It likes this kind of grass very much. (BTW: it is really difficult to do the real zubrowka in a bathtub; you need very clean, natural spring water and WELL distilled grain alcohol).

How about our 2 or 3 y.o. miod [myood], a liquor based on honey? Have you tasted any?

(OK everyone, sorry for reeling a little off-topic .)

I hope and pray the Orthodox advance guard among the Byzantine Catholics can reclaim their heritage without 1) being struck down by latter-day John Irelands (Dr John is right here about this ever-present danger) or 2) making the mistake of joining the liberal dissenters in attacking everything that�s �traditional Roman�. Traditionalists in general aren�t stupid as they are sometimes painted here. Some of the ones I�ve known, including former members of Archbishop Lefebvre�s movement, have either settled in (Byzantinized) or at least become good guests at Byzantine churches. Roman Catholics smart enough to study and criticize the New Mass generally also are well-educated (sometimes self-taught) enough to know the Constantinopolitan tradition is equal to their own.

Stanislaw, you�re basically right. And thanks for using the distinction among RCs of conservatives (who go along with the Novus Ordo liturgical status quo, which sometimes causes cognitive dissonance compared to their sound teachings) and traditionalists (who use the Tridentine Mass most or all of the time). EWTN is conservative. The Fraternity of St Peter is traditionalist.

Traditionalists are like the Orthodox in that they realize Catholicism is not the personal cult of the Pope and that immemorial custom, including liturgy, are not decoration but integral parts of the faith.

Conservatives commendably avoid the extreme of shallow nostalgia (over-identification of one style with the faith) but sometimes fall into a caricature Catholicism that won�t criticize the Pope�s prudential judgement. Some seem to believe in personal papal impeccability; Catholicism doesn�t.

Traditionalists, OTOH, can be like latter-day St Catherine of Sienas: if the Pope blows it (like with the Koran-kissing incident or selling out on altar girls), they will let him know about it! And they are not �bad Catholics� for so doing.

A digression: conservatives also seem influenced by a kind of secondhand Protestant phronema brought in through the charismatic movement and through some ex-Evangelical converts, also responsible for reinforcing the Jansenist disease among some born RCs. Silliness like banning couples holding hands or kissing in public at Christendom College (once true) is the result of this. (To contrast, Catholic culture has produced German beer, Italian wine and even Mardi Gras/Carneval!) Anthony probably can attest that this �used Protestantism� has brought in a ridiculous notion among young people that one shouldn�t kiss one�s significant other before marriage. Puh-leez.

Back to the topic: Dr John has a point that some traditionalists do over-identify one historical expression with the faith. This is also an Achilles� heel of hardline Orthodox, IMO: it�s a kind of phyletism.

A blessed Velikij Post!

Serge

<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus�</A>

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-26-2001).]

The monthly magazine of the Greek Catholic Basilian Fathers in Slovakia, Blahovistnik, published an article just a few years ago which stated that for an unmarried couple (in courtship, presumably) to hold hands is objectively sinful. In the same span of a couple issues, they also denounced fortune-telling, homeopathic medicine, Darwinism, and martial arts.

Yet in their liturgical & theological positions, these same Basilians (unlike those of yore) -- most of whom are under 40 years old -- are considered avant-garde Byzantinists / "Orthodoxizers" by the generally horribly-Latinized diocesan operatives in Presov...