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Dear Brethern,
I came across this section of scripture during lectionary reading last night. I understand it to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds originally from the Father. I know we have discussed it before,but I feel this explains it clearly. How does the forum read it?
> John 15:26 KJV="But when the Comforter is come,whom I will send unto you from the Father,even the Spirit of Truth,*which proceedeth from the Father*,He shall testify of me".
> John 15:26 NAB="When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father,the Spirit of Truth that *proceeds from the Father*,he will testify to me".
In Christ,
James
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I read it as the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
Logos Teen
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Dear Logos Teen,
Yes, it can be read that way,but also read the following;
John 14:16= "And I will ask the Father,and He will give you another Helper,that He may be with you forever;that is the Spirit of truth";
and
John 14:26= "But the Helper,the Holy Spirit,whom the Father will send in My name,He will teach you all things,and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you".
Logos Teen, there are no arguments since the Church(Roman) sees both traditions as complementarity,provided it does not become rigid.
At this time of year I feel we are refreshing and reaffirming our faith and spirituality with our brethern.
Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,
James
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Hi All, What about these verses? ... John 20:21-22: Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you." And with that He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Is this not the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son also? Or this verse... Romans 8:9: You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. So in this verse if the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are two separate Divine Spirits then we have two Gods and NOT one God. Then these verses in Mark 12, Deut 6, and John 1 would be false! (if we believe in one God): God is OneMark 12:28-29: 28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked Him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deut 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. The Word, Jesus Christ is GodJohn 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God. The first reference to God is the Father, correct?, the second is the Son, correct? Two Gods or one God? One God, therefore the Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son.  Please comment on these verses. In Jesus and Mary, BradM
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Dear Teen Logos,
Yes, it can be read that way,but also read the following;
John 14:16= "And I will ask the Father,and He will give you another Helper,that He may be with you forever;that is the Spirit of truth";
and
John 14:26= "But the Helper,the Holy Spirit,whom the Father will send in My name,He will teach you all things,and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you".
Teen Logos, there are no arguments since the Church(Roman) sees both traditions as complementarity,provided it does not become rigid.
At this time of year I feel we are refreshing and reaffirming our faith and spirituality with our brethern.
Peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,
James Peace, James. I am certainly aware of the complimentary nature of both the Western and Eastern view concerning the Procession of the Holy Spirit. I by no means wish to instigate a disagreement here. I don't see how John 14:16 denies the Filioque, and I believe John 14:26 altogether supports it. The following is taken from Protestant Scriptural commentary concerning John 14:16 - John speaks of the Paraclete in relation to the Father, the Son, the disciples and the world. The Father is the source of the Paraclete (14:16, 26; 15:26), and Jesus is the one who sends the Paraclete by asking the Father to send him (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7). Thus both the Son and the Paraclete have the same source, the Father, but the Son has a role in the historical sending of the Paraclete. Both Jesus and the Paraclete play distinct but related roles in the revelation of the Father and the giving of life. Indeed, Gary Burge has counted sixteen similarities between Jesus and the Paraclete (1987:141), which we will note as they appear in the text. For instance, in our present text the Paraclete is called "another Paraclete" (14:16), which implies that Jesus himself is the Paraclete. In 1 John the term itself is actually used of Jesus: "But if anyone does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense [the NIV's paraphrase of parakletos]--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One" (2:1). In 1 John the role does seem to be in a legal setting. Jesus, in his humanity as the Righteous One, is our advocate before God when it comes to dealing with our sin. But in the Gospel, Jesus says the Paraclete will take up the role Jesus himself has already been fulfilling during his ministry. Perhaps the most fundamental aspect of Jesus' ministry has been to mediate the divine presence, so it is tempting to find the general idea behind the usage of the word Paraclete, both in John's letter and in the Gospel, to be "presence." Jesus is a human presence ("the Righteous One") in heaven, and he is the divine presence on earth. The Paraclete (who is himself distinct from Jesus and not simply Jesus' presence) is to continue that divine presence among the disciples. Logos Teen
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Brother Brad,
Very good point in John 20, which I missed and places another point towards the filioque.
Logos Teen I apologize for reversing your forum name which I will correct after this post. Again you can read the scripture to say from the Father through the Son.
I relish bible study and discussion, this forum provides a excellent resource when you cannot participate in a church group.
Peace in Christ,
James
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Glory to Jesus Christ!
Any discussion of the Filioque and the scriptural passages on which it is thought to be based must keep in mind the (mostly Eastern Christian) distinction between theology -- the inner relations within the Godhead -- and economy -- the workings of God in creation or "for us men."
I'm curious about the references to the "oneness" of God -- as if the Orthodox position re: the Filioque makes us "tritheists."
In Christ,
Theophilos
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Dear Brad,
Theophilos is quite right.
The Holy Spirit is sent into the world for the realization of our salvation by BOTH the Father AND the Son.
But the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone as from the "Origin" and "Monarch" of the Trinity.
Roman Catholic theology does not deny this.
RC theology has ALWAYS, let me reiterate, ALWAYS held that the Holy Spirit proceeds DIFFERENTLY from the Father and differently from the Son.
The Spirit proceeds ACTIVELY from the Father, but PASSIVELY from the Son.
This is entirely harmonious, I believe, with the phrase: From the Father through the Son, as maintained by St John of Damascus (who actually denied the Spirit can be said to proceed "from the Son" and he is recognized as a saint by Rome!), by St Maximos the Confessor and also by St Photios of Constantinople!
That the Spirit is "Christ's Spirit" does NOT mean that the Son is His Origin. As a matter of fact, Roman Catholic theology forbids this as a matter of formal heresy.
This refers to what St Anselm of Canterbury discussed in terms of "circumincession" where the Persons of the Trinity are wholly in each other etc.
It has NOTHING to do with the issue of Origin.
While not heretical from this Catholic point of view, the "Filioque" is not the best way to convey the meaning of "Active" and "Passive" spiration of the Holy Spirit within the Life of the Trinity.
It suggests that the Spirit proceeds in the SAME way (because there is no qualifier) from Both.
And that, from the standpoint of RC theology itself, would be heresy.
It is best to leave out the Filioque altogether in the Creed meant to express the universal faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, united Church of the first Millennium.
As James pointed out, the Scriptures are quite clear on this, as is the witness of the early Fathers and that of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.
Alex
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