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Originally posted by Deacon El:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Concerning the movie, I would be interested in your opinions of the scene showing the devil carrying a child. The devil remains the murky, hooded female character but the child is portrayed as diabolical and, frankly, deliberately ugly.
What is the significance of the child?

Deacon El
Father Deacon El,
I have wondered about this also and at first, thought the ugly child represented despair(maybe too much of Dicken's Christmas Carol)...since then I have read many opinions about this, and the one that makes most sense (to me anyway) is that it is related to the passage in Genesis telling of the enimity between the Seed of the Woman, Christ Himself, and the seed of the serpent, represented by the ugly child. The person who wrote this pointed out that the first part of that prophecy is shown in the Garden scene, when the Lord crushes the serpent with his foot...so it would follow that the second part would also be shown.

Vie

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I do not believe Satan knew for sure who Jesus was until after the crucifixion. He knew for up to a certain time that the Lord was a special man sent to serve and please God.

The child being held by Satan is symbolic of the son of perdition. This can stand for the anti-christ, or it can represent the Roman Empire, or anyone who is against our Lord.

Satan in his delusion, thought by killing Jesus, God's plan would be killed. Satan may know scripture verses, but he cannot possess the grace of the Holy Spirit to interpret and apply. Hope this helps everyone.
Peace,
V

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It would seem to me that based on the Byzantine hymns for Good Friday, and especially Holy Saturday Lamentations, Hell/Satan didn't fully grasp what was going on. One hymn, speaking in the person of Hades, says that it accepted Christ thinking he was a man, only to realize he was also God and would conquer Hades. Hades says that it should not have accepted Christ. Hymns such as these seem to indicated that the devil didn't fully grasp the situation, at best thinking it had conquered this prophet (messiah?), and that the Incarnation was hid even from him.

Liturgical interpretation is usually primary in the Byzantine tradition....

Justin

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I have wondered about this also and at first, thought the ugly child represented despair[/QB]
As far as what the movie was trying to get across with the �son of satan��

Satan, while knowing that Jesus was the Son of God, Satan has no capability to know what that means in anyway deeper than - just words.

Theologically this is in the ball park in as much as �satan� is not called to the same total and intimate union with God that Jesus had and that we may have. He can know - about it (in an intellectual way) but cannot know itin the way of an the knowledge of expereince.

For example - how would you explain sight to someone who had no eyes and never knew �sight�? How would you explain sound to someone who had no ears and had never had any experience of - sound?? Words point to a human experience of something but it you have no experience of that something then the words remain empty and point to nothing further than a �knowing about�.

In the Garden while Satan�s pressure is wholly upon Jesus� Satan asks out loud (to him self) �Who are you?� and at about the same time also asks (more to himself than to Jesus) �Who is your father?� These were things that Satan was trying to understand but just couldn�t - grasp.

During this �tempting� in the Garden� any other man � would have give in to the words of Satan. Jesus - did not give in but prayed all the harder. Satan�s remark was more along the line of �What kind of man are you - that you have withstood me??� this baffled Satan.

The point is � �satan� can know about God in an intellectual way but can not know God at all in a way of union.

The ugly child, in the arms of Satan - in context of the movie� was Satan�s son - and the taunt while Jesus was suffering � �See how I love and take care of MY son?? I am the good father� see how your father lets you suffer??�

Satan�s goal (in the movie) was to dissuade Jesus from his single goal of accepting all the suffering that His Father would put upon him - and make it to that cross! This was portrayed very well in as much as by the last time that Jesus fell (the swoon while Simeon helped carry the cross) - by this time Simeon had come to realize that Jesus� great battle with death was a battle of staying alive in order to make it - to that cross! So Simeon whispers to Jesus �Just a little bit more - it is almost over - see! It is right there!�

Very well done indeed.

Make no mistake - on the way to the cross Jesus did not make it here with the help of any of his own God nature - no, at this point the was just - a man - a human - and his God nature (while still present) did not aide him at all (�why have you abandoned me??�) and Jesus' human intellect was plunged into the 'dark night of the spirit' where the intellect (mind) has no light and cannot see the reasons and 'whys'.

Satan would have had Jesus die before even getting to the cross� die .. On the way. And any human other than one entirely clean of conscience - WOULD have allowed death to be an escape from any more suffering. You, or I, on that same journey would have probably died during the flaggation� or the very least would have welcomed death on the road� but Jesus - with sheer human will (as only someone pure in conscience could do) called upon every fiber of his human spirit (mind and heart) to keep himself alive in order to make it to that cross and complete what was written of him. For Jesus and his mother - THAT was the will of God - that Jesus make it to die - on the cross.

So at this point in the movies Satan is saying to the suffering Jesus �Why do you want to make it to that cross?? Why keep yourself alive just to mount up that cross?? Take my advice - see how well I treat MY son? (stroking its face in a loving manner) while your father lets you suffer. Why do his will - why not just die on the way to the cross - instead of dedicating yourself to his will of mounting the cross??�

Theologically - just as Satan has not the capability to grasp God in the way of union - nor know anything more about God or what it is to be the Son of God - in anything more than a dry intellectual knowledge� so too it is that Satan does not understand the mystery of the cross and the redemptive act it was. No more than a dog or cat can understand how to do algebra.

In Genesis, in the Garden� in the original Hebrew� this is also portrayed. God gives the commandment to �Do not eat of the tree in the midst else you dying you shall die.� and the word for �die� here (used twice) is the Hebrew word meaning a spiritual death.

The Hebrew word for the death of the body is differently but sounds similar.

While the serpent is aware of the command (and we know he was aware because he asked Adam about it) Satan asks Adam �Did God really say that you cannot eat of the fruit from the tree in the midst of the Garden least you die?� and the word used means to die as in the death of a corpse or body. And Satan goes on to say �Surely you will not die. . .(as in a corpse) but you shall become like God.� by providing for yourself. Keep in mind that the meaning of the garden (Eden or Paradise) is that God is all-providing to man and there was no need for man to provide for himself. Man becoming like God to Satan is man providing for - himself.

Union with God is not a union taking place in the intellect but taking place in the will. A kind of �letting him be the father�. That union takes place in the conscience (con=together science=knowledge) with the emphasis on - together and union of wills.

So it is portrayed in the Garden that Satan (while having superior intellectual powers) does not know union with God in any other way than - an empty intellectually way. He has no idea what �spiritual death� is because he has never had �spiritual life� (union with God) and refuses it.

Some might say to me �But Satan was once and angel of light who fell!� but they assume a time sequence to something that has no time involved (eternity).

Satan is an angel of light (intellectual knowledge) at all times and he �hears� the commandments of God - but he does not know what they mean in any other way than a servant (go and do this because I told you to go and do this). As Jesus said, one is ether a servant (does the commands of God in an intellectual way) or a friend (knows the heart and will of God and is in union with it).

In pictures - Satan is forced to do the will of God and has no choice about it. And is not aware that he is doing only what God is allowing or wants him to do � after all � temptations - prove us - they are the anvil upon which God - forms us into him-self (sons). Because we have - free will.

So Satan (the spirit of self-providence as alternative to God�s all-providence) has no way to know what the experience of a union with the will of God - is.

I hope this helps.

And thank you Mel.

-ray


-ray
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