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I was having a discussion with a friend today about the idea of covenant relationship.
The Jewish People circumsized their infants on the 8th day and Christ was also presented in the Temple.
The infants were brought into this relationship without giving their consent. We practise the Baptism of infants without their personal consent.
She asked me if there was a correlation between Circumcision and Baptism.
I remember reading this analogy made in the early 3rd century. Any comments?
Stpehanos I

Cf Colossians 3 9ff

Stephanos

I believe that Colossians 2:11,12 explains that pretty well.

In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ.

Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him up from the dead. Colossians 2:11,12

It clearly demonstrates that baptism has replaced circumcision.

From a moms point of view Science knows that on the 8th day, there is no pain in circumcision.

I think in our Baptism there is no pain, only joy and light. The cleansing of the soul bringing truth that last throughout our life time.

In Scripture, when the head of the household was Baptised the whole family was. I was raised Southern Baptist and went without the Eucharist my whole life. It would be extremely hard for me to imagine my children not having the interior grace that God feeds us through the Eucharist and the power of the Holy Spirit. Christ is empowered to work internaly in us because of the seal of the Holy Spirit put upon us. Those not receiving the Sacramental Graces only have recourse to outward calling of the Holy Spirit to God's grace as they mature.

Matthew 19:
13
10 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them,
14
but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
15
After he placed his hands on them, he went away.


Acts 18:
8
Crispus, 4 the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household, and many of the Corinthians who heard believed and were baptized.
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/

I will take the Baptism anyday, anytime. I don't know how much it has to do with Jewish law, but it has a lot to do with the Word of God.

Pani Rose

Dear Friends,

The Ethiopian Church does an interesting blend of Old Testament and New Testament traditions.

They do BOTH circumcision and baptism - with the circumcision as a memorial to the old covenant (they actually believe in 7 covenants between God and mankind with the seventh being the most perfect, of course, that of OLGS Jesus Christ).

They also celebrate BOTH Saturday and Sunday as the one Sabbath etc.

When the RC missionaries were in Ethiopia, they were shocked to see them practice circumcision as Christians - and the Ethiopians opposed RCism as a foreign system attempting to destroy their old traditions.

And their hand Crosses combine the symbols of the Presence of the Lord or Shekinah in both the OT/NT - the Cross on top and the Tabot with ten markings representing the ten commandments at the base.

Speaking of Baptism, they place a blue or black cord,(others tell me it is a triple, intertwined strand of green, yellow and red, the colours of the Holy Trinity) said to come originally from the prayer shawl of St Peter the Apostle as he baptized in the Jordan, around the neck of the new Christian, with or without a neck cross.

There was a law in Christian Ethiopia saying that every Christian had to wear the "matab" or cord - to this day, any Ethiopian who does not is considered to be a Muslim . . .

Alex

Interesting.

As a note...

Circumcision in the Old Testament (not isolated to the Jews alone) was symbolic in many ways. The most practical being a way to mark the male child as a member of the tribe (and therefore protected by the tribe). The most spiritual meaning being the forfeiting of the productiveness of a man - to God. A dedication of all that he is and all that he will produce (generations included) to God�s Providence.

But baptism - is most interesting in as much as the first Christian forms were to signify death and resurrection.

The initiate was stripped naked and his old clothing discarded (off with the old man) and then he was submerged on his back - underwater - and held there to the point of near drowning. The newly baptized being lifted from the waters and gasping for air. A simulation of death and tomb - and being born again (resurrected) out of the waters.

I do not know what was done for females.

Most movies display John the Baptist hip deep in the currents of the Jordan river - but I think the way it was usually done was - as the cave of John the Baptist was discovered - the Jordan feed a dug out pit inside the cave - and stairs descended into it. The newly baptized was given a white robe (the new man).

I would be curious as to how the Ethiopians baptize as I would suspect it would be very near to the early church. The rest of us having changed things according to pastoral needs.

Interesting.


So I am not real sure that circumcision and baptism are directly related. On eis a mark of dedication (this animal belongs to Yahwah) and the other being a mark of son ship and not ownership.

But to support Rose - it does seem that Baptism (a spiritual mark) did replace the physical mark of dedication to God. The one being the mark of a tribe (of God) and the other being the spiritual mark of an actual son.

This seems reasonable.

-ray

To All,

Year ago I was talking to an elderly Jewish woman. She told me that her Rabbi sat her and a group of women in a river and told them that God was like that river flowing around her and protecting them. I found it interesting because baptism in running water certainly came from somewhere. John the Baptist did not pull it out of a hat.

Yet I can't help but feel that it is the 'presence' of those people and priest, (if there is one) that are 'standing up' for that child instilling that special 'Grace' into him. I say this because in an emergiancy anyone can 'stand up' for that baby in the sacrament of Baptism by reciting certain words.

Now words are not magic, so it is the goodwill and Christian Grace and faith within the person or persons performing and accompanying the Baptism.

As for the elderly Jewish woman, I told her that we believe God comes within us. She just looked at me.

Zenovia