www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings 1 Timothy 4:1-3

Could anyone help on this issue? I have read St. John Chrysostom's homily on this passage. I have exhausted myself in explaining ang giving perspective. I believe the person that I am in dialogue with is stuck with the word "prohibit". Can anyone give an exegesis on this based on the Fathers. Thanks.

Ruel

I think so - but not in the way you are expecting. I can help you but perhaps not Charlie.

I do hope your debate with this guy is not taken seriously by you. If you are doing it to sharpen your own knowledge by him forcing you to investigate your own church more - that can be good. But he is obviously deep in habitual and religious belief of the persistent anti-Catholic rumors and misunderstanding that circulate for so long. He sees it as his God commanded duty - to fight the devil (Catholic church) and to fail to attack it is a failure of his own faith to attack the devil - etc.. etc� for him to reason humanly with you is for him to show lack of faith and belief in his �god�.

If you want to play with him (not in a nasty way) then you should get off the defensive. In chess - when you are placed on the defensive and are not attacking - you are only a short time from losing. It is the same in debate. Spend little time defending and more time breaking new ground.

Rather than trying to shore up breaches in the wall (he will simple move his target to making another breach somewhere else) you must breach - his wall. If you do not get off the defensive you will be run ragged trying to cover each hole he makes� you will tire and he will feel proud of himself.

For example�

Timothy is talking about current (to himself) Judassisors - fellow Christians who were claiming that the physical return of Jesus was just a short time away - and so Christian should not marry (because they would all be physically taken to heaven in a few months) and that Christians must observe Jewish ritual laws when it came to foods. Paul had a lot of difficulty with these Judassisors at Corinth also. They advised people to quit working, not marry, observe all Jewish laws - and within a few months Jesus would physically return and the physical world would be destroyed and so on and so on to the tune of what the Church has continually condemned for all its life. Note that in the epistles the term anti-christ is only used for and applies to fellow Christians contemporary with the apostles � who deny the authority of the apostles and imagine themselves as better than or equal to the apostles while trying to lead off fellow Christians into some other foolish explanation of Jesus.

It will not do you a bit of good to try and explain that to Charlie� Charlie us under a �revelation from God� by believing his own misunderstanding of scriptures is really from the Spirit. Charlie has a dire need to see himself as �saved�. Charlie has done some bad things in his life - only Charlie knows what they are - but they are bad enough against his conscience that that he has been desperate enough to ignore normal reasoning and is driven to see himself as �saved� from what ever it is that he has done in the past.

Now ask Charlie if he is married - and if so - to how many wives?

Note that Timothy does not say how many wives - so if we are to take it literally (as Charlie has to do) than even a prohibition to any marriage (more than one wife) is �evil�. So was the logical of early Mormons who took many wives in order to increase the �herd�.

Skirt his present question (he has framed it in such a way that any answer you give - you will lose). He is leading you around by the nose. Break free of that. YOU - lead - him now for awhile.

You may not �win� (any win there would not be real anyway) but you will frustrate him to dizziness and he will eventually leave you alone least he look foolish.

So answer him with some short un-explicable mumbo jumbo - and then ask him �Charlie - are you married?� and wait for him to answer that. Wait days if you have to. If he responds with more questions to you - without answering yours (which he will probably do because he is having so much fun leading you around) then in your reply simply ignore his questions and ask him to please respond to yours �Are you married?� because you want to learn from him (bait he can not refuse).

When he finally answers the key question - ask him �Are you married to more than one woman? Do you have several wives?�

To which he will respond �No.. only one wife� and some extra yak as he tried to get you on the defensive again. Patiently return to Timothy and point out that he (Charlie) is obeying a that prohibition on marriage - and according to his own logic - and that makes Charlie in cahoots with the devil. So according to Charlie - Charlie is just that man that Timothy is warning us about.

Be patient about this. Ignore your own feelings that you should defend yourself and your faith. God can take care of himself and his church . Be patient - you have a purpose - stick to it.

Charlie is being particularly nasty to you - I am not saying that you should be nasty back - I am saying that you should be wise - notice what he is doing and how he is doing it . What ever a man�s chosen weapon is - it is that very weapon by which he himself is most vulnerable.

You have no chance to speak to his reason - until you make his attacks null and void. When you do that he has two choices� either to walk away in frustration (he is no better nor worst off in that case) or cease and give you a reasonable listen (now you may reason with him).

But back off from any of this if it is upsetting you at all. That is his goal - and nothing else. A psyche vampire� it seems to me.

You have no need to turn nasty (he probably will but you need not). Just trust me that I have nailed him for the most part - trust that the reasoning of the Catholic church is self evident to a reasonable man - trust that Charlie is no being a reasonable man right now - trust that there is a strong cause of his own conscience as to why he is not (we do not need to know the details of it) - and trust that it will best be his own logic that will be shake him - and that will make him extremely uncomfortable. If he feels un-saved but the logic he has put together he will panic a bit. Squirm a bit.

So follow his logic and apply it back to himself. Do not let him place his design of the chessboard on you - get out from under his rules. He is calling the tune and you are dancing to it. Dance my friend to your own tune. Because he does not know that dance he can not second guess you and already have his chessmen set up for the ambush.

(only a suggestion for your consideration - you have the flavor of it - apply it as you think it best applied - but at least you know how Cahrlie is playing a game on you)

-ray.

elexeie,

Here is a URL which includes several commentaries from Early Church Fathers regarding the passage, 1 Timothy 4:1-3 you are discussing with Charlie.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/e-catena/1timothy4.html

I would like to add a few hints to what RayK has said:

I do agree with you in that your antagonist is not using exegesis, but eisegesis, that is he is reading something he wants to read into the passage. Eisegesis is the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

Keep in mind that these passages were mainly written to Timothy as special instructions regarding things going on then. It is a far out leap to conclude the author of 1 Timothy was referring to the Catholic Church.

The bible should always be understood in context of the rest of the bible. Passages can be taken way out of context, beyond what they meant then to what someone wants them to mean now. In this way they can be made to justify erroneous thinking as your opponent seems to be doing.

Where he asks for a simple "yes" or "no" about whether after receiving the sacrament of holy orders , does one still have the option to marry while keeping his vocation? The answer to that, obviously, is a simple "no"

Ray is right, don't let this guy get you on the defensive. I would never go too far with him. He seems to be swatting at gnats in his efforts to crucify Catholicism. It's been done before.

If it continues I would just resist further arguments and start praying for him which you may already be doing. But you may find something on the URL I gave above to help you. There is a lot there to wade through. God Bless you.

Porter.

Ah... you said it all much sweeter than I did

We are all gratefull you are here Mary Jo.


-ray

Dear Ray and Porter,

Thank you very much for the wise counsels! They are greatly appreciated. I have learned much from your posts and from web surfing to see the different angles. I have also seen the relationship between the marriage vows and the priestly vows in conjunction with the text and the mind of the Church regarding the discipline of celibacy. Thanks!