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Early translations of the NAB (which I find atrocious ) follow this Protestant error. But I have seen that more recent editions of the NAB at least in the Lectionary readings have gone back to the translation as "full of grace"
Stephanos I
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StephanosI,
Are you calling the Jerusalem Bible translation of Luke 1:28 Protestant error also ? I place the Greek text above the Latin.
james
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Originally posted by Stephanos I:
Actually Brethren
the vulgate is the only accurate translation of the Greek text
chaire kecharitomene = gratia plena = full of grace.
And this translation is pivital in our understanding of doctrine concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The whole question of the Immaculate Conception is affected in how we translate and understand this text.
It is interesting to note that only one other person in the NT is full of grace. Yep! You guessed it Jesus. We see this in John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and tuth;" [b]plenes charitos kai aletheias = plenum gratiae = full of grace.
Of course it must be noted that Jesus "alone" was by nature full of grace and Mary was full of grace by God's favor.
Stephanos I [/b] Dear Stephanos, Thank you so much. gratia plena. I love it (and the Greek too). Thanks for the comparison to Jesus being full of grace. All these years I missed that. Peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ave Maria! Paul
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James
That was the greek text! chaire kecharitomene it dont know what they are following but it is neither the Greek text nor the Latin.
Stephanos I
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Stephanos,
Acts 6:8
"And Stephen, *full of grace* and power, did great wonders and signs among th people".
james
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Actually the text should read: "Stephen a man of faith and power" de pleres caritos kai dunameos (pisteos) and (pneumatos)
in ohter words he was a man filled with faith and the spirit.
Stephanos I
The byzantine majority text bears this out.
KJV "And Stephen, full of faith amd power, did great wonders and miracles among the people"
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Originally posted by Woody Jones: Originally posted by Jakub:
[b] Paul,
My trusty RSV Luke 1:28> "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you ".
My Jerusalem Bible > " Rejoice so highly favoured! The Lord is with you ".
james Sorry about this, I hit the wrong button before adding my comment, which is: that the RSV Catholic Edition has it "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!' A marginal note says: "Or 'O favored one'". My RSV Common Bible edition says "O favoured one", with a marginal note that "Other ancient authorities add 'Blessed are you among women!'". The Navarre Bible commentary to this verse (referring to the RSVCE) says in part: "Hail full of grace": literally the Greek text reads "Rejoice!", obviously referring to a unique joy over the news which the angel is about to communicate. "Full of grace": by this unusual form of greeting the archangel reveals Mary's special dignity and honour. The Fathers and Doctors of the Church "taught that this singular, solemn and unheard-of greeting showed that all the divine graces reposed in the Mother of God and that she was adorned with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit", which meant that she "was never subject to the curse", that is, was preserved from all sin. These words of the archangel in this text constitute one of the sources which reveal the dogma of Mary's immaculate conception (cf. Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus ; Paul VI, Creed of the People of God ).
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How did the Fathers view this translation.
The Early Church saw that Mary was exempt from personal sin.
Augustine: "With the exception of the Holy Virgin Mary, in whose case, out of respect for the Lord. I do not wish there to be any further question as fas as sin is concerned, since how can we know what great abundance of grace was conferred on here to conquer sin in every way , seeing that she merited to conceive and bear him who certainly had no sin at all"
"De natura et gratia" 36,42 PL44
Andrew of Crete "This Mary the Theotokos,the common refuge of all Christians, the first to be liberated from the original fall of our first parents" Homily 3 on the Nativity PG 97
Stephanos I
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Stephanos writes: Ghazar, "Curses of darkness" come on! No there are people who seriously consider that the OSB is far too influenced by Protestantism. And I happen to be one of them. I also have the other Orthodox NT published by the Holy Apostles Convent and the Dormition Skete in Buena Vista CO. It too has its serious defects... Why do all translations miserably fail in there translation of Luke 1:28? For me it has become a standard text to judge the homesty and worthness of the translation." Dear Stephanos, To base your selection of a scripture translation on a single verse, I think is rather ridiculous. I'm sure you can't seriously mean this. And to base it on a text that is in refernce to St. Mary rather than our Lord is also troubling to me. The Scriptures are centered on Christ. It is the texts that refer to him which take precedence to me. In fact, I have the text in front of me, and the foot note in the OSB for that sigle verse is handled quite adequately. I qoute: "'Highly favored' (Gr. Charitoo) can also be translated 'Full of grace.' Mary is greeted with an exalted salutation because, in her destiny to be the mother of Christ, she is the most blessed woman of all time. In accord with Luke's picture of her, Mary is praised in the Orthodox Church as being surrounded with divine grace and shinning with holiness." So where is the serious defect and Protestant error here? I think being hung up and insisting on the wording "full of grace" is by far a Latin perspective rather than an Orthodox one. They do this partly becuase they believe their doctrine of the Immaculate Conception depends on it being translated "full of grace." Obviously these are not significant themes in the Orthodox Church. We don't have any doctrines depending on this wording. Infact, I've worshipped in Orthodox Churches numerous times where the Liturgy alluding to this verse, refers to her as "O favored one," even using the word "rejoice" rather than the archaic "hail." This is why the selection of our Bible translation would not be dependent on this single verse. Now, if anyone looks at the OSB web-site you will see that they explain they followed some Protestant ideas in the original layout of the first edition (not to mention employing the Protestant NKJV). They did this, they explain, becuase they were venturing into some uncharted territory producing the first low cost, easily available, Orthodox Study Bible. In the new edition this reliance on Protestant format is being corrected. So yes, don't curse the darkness. But the key to this Bible is not "quotes from the Fathers" at all, as some seem to think. Instead the significance of this Bible to me is its presentation of Orthodox themes, theology, Tradition and Biblical interpretation. For instance take any dominant theme of Orthodoxy and beginning in the index of footnotes begin to trace where that theme is treated in the notes of the Bible. Then read the various Biblical citations along with the corresponding notes. I've done this many times and come away with much deeper Orthodox Biblical understanding of these particular Orthodox doctrines. THIS is why I like the OSB. This is in stark contrast to the rejection or adandonment of all Church Tradition employed in modern day bibles like the NAB, and the JB. These employ the new faithless, scientific approach of "Biblical Criticism" as their main approach to Biblical interpretation. This alone is enough for me not to use them. The notes in these Bibles do not support Orthodox or any other Tradition. And their Old Testaments, in their dependence on the Masoretic, translate away many Christiological OT texts prefigurements and prophesies. Hence the real and obvious need for the LXX in modern English. Praise God this is finally coming. Not only this but Rome itself has rejected the revisions of both these texts (NAB, JB) as well as the NRSV because of their employment of feminist ideas in traslation (although the newest NAB is supposed to be correcting these). The Douay-Rheims (the Challoner Revision of the mid nineteenth century is the one typically used) has many strengths. It is a good Roman Catholic Study Bible for sure. And many times our two Traditions agree. Therefore I keep it around as a helpful reference. But to ask it to be an Orthodox Study Bible is aksing too much of it. Thank you all for your replies. Trusting in Christ's Light, Wm. DerGhazarian Looys Kreesdosee www.geocities.com/derghazar [ geocities.com]
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Now, if anyone looks at the OSB web-site...
Ghazar,
You refer to a an "OSB web-site" in your post... I'm extermely interested in learning more about this text - would you please share a link or address for this site you refer to?
Thank you!
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Thank you, my friend, but never mind... I did a web search and (easily) found it myself!
D'oh!
...a rather embarassed pilgrim...
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Dear Pilgrim, Good question. Actually I'll list it for any others who might be interested. http://www.lxx.org/ Btw, there is an excellent little "flash player" clip about the importance of the Septuagint on their homepage as well. Trusting in Christ's Light, Wm. DerGhazarian Looys Kreesdosee www.geocities.com/derghazar [ geocities.com]
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Ghazar,
Its great to see that the project is nicely progressing towards completion.
Dont get me wrong about the OSB I value it highly and have already a copy of the NT and plan to get one of the OT as soon as it is available.
I was just noting an observation some people have concerning it.
Stephanos I
Unworthy Monk and Arch sinner.
PS Thanks for the website link. Very well done.
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Bless me, Father. I appreciate your input. I (along with the editors of the OSB) agree with you that there is plenty of room for improvement. Constructive criticism can surely be a helpful thing. I have good expectations for the next edition, especially considering the fact that I have benefitted so much from the original [faulty]  edition. This thread was just meant to bring their work to the attention of others. I think we all succeeded at this. Thank you. Trusting in Christ's Light, Wm. DerGhazarian Looys Kreesdosee www.geocities.com/derghazar [ geocities.com]
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