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Alex and William,

I guess my main points are: One that certainly the tradition is that St. John was grace filled in the womb, although I believe the more ancient tradition puts it after his conception. Two the conception of the Theotokos and her grace filling are unique and cannot be directly compared with other saints.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The website reads "coming soon," for the O.T. anyone know how soon?

I get their mailers, and they are now saying 2006, I think. It was originally going to be this year, but delays do happen, as my CLE course sponsors know--I'm already 10 days late to send them my articles for the book, and will be another week or so.

Dear djs,

My students include many Orthodox Christians as well as Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostals and others.

Many of these are "indifferent" to religion as a whole.

Your use of "relapse" is offensive - not only to me, but to all those Orthodox and EC's here who identify with Eastern theology - as it suggests some sort of theological "condition" that removes from me the ability to think objectively (and in your case, "objectively" means to slavishly follow Augustinian perspectives that many Roman Catholics today appear to be rejecting or at least reformulating).

I'm still waiting for any indication from you that you accept that there can be legitimate Catholic theologies that are not "Latin" in essence.

As for "relapsing" into this or that, Latinization of our Eastern theology has always been regarded, by both Eastern and Roman experts on the Eastern Church, as the worse kind of "condition" to be in, and one that EC's tend to "relapse" into now and again.

As for my students, my understanding of Eastern Christianity is known to many priests, to bishops, and to nuns in this Eparchy - as well as to Orthodox Christians.

I have never been reproached for any aspect of it, when I teach it or when I write about it.

As the principal has told me, Orthodox parents have, in the past three weeks, signed up their children to attend her school BECAUSE I'll be teaching religion there - that's a fact, not a boast.

If Orthodox parents are comfortable with me teaching their kids religion - then what can I do about it? If it's a crime to be "Orthodox in union with Rome" (and they do know I'm in union with Rome) then shoot me.

You could have shown some moral sort for me, Friend, in my undertaking to relate to a student body from such a wide series of religious backgrounds.

Go out and try that for yourself - or else talk about weather!

Or you could write to my bishop to complain about the "proximate dangers to the Holy Roman Catholic Faith" that my views may expose the students to. But that would require you to sign your full name, so we can forget about that . . .

God bless you, nevertheless . . .

Dominus Vobiscum!

Alex

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

Now that you are in full retreat . . .

IF the East ever shared the understanding that is most prominent in the West that John the Baptist was sanctified (for the first time) at the time of the Visitation - it certainly never felt the need to celebrate this liturgically.

And I think that from an Eastern Christian point of view, this is the MOST telling aspect of this debate.

NO ONE is suggesting that St John the Baptist is "equal" to the Most of God - the pattern of the hierarchy of Saints in our Church clearly shows this is not the case.

After God and Christ, the Mother of God comes first and ahead of all the Angels and Saints in the celestial hierarchy (!).

After Her come the Holy Angels, three ranks and nine Choirs of them, but certain Fathers, like St John Chrysostom, have suggested that there probably are many others that will be revealed to us at the end of the world etc.

After the Angels, comes the Angelic John the Baptist (often, as you know, depicted in icons with wings, so great is his holiness).

The West's Litany of the Saints places St Joseph after St John - and some "Josephologists" as we have in Montreal have argued that St Joseph is on a par equal to John the Baptist. But all this is their own speculation on the basis of the "it is appropriate' schema.

You seem, if I'm not mistaken, to be negatively reacting - correctly, I will say - to the possible implication concerning "equality" in holiness between the Mother of God and John the Baptist because of the issue they both had Holy Conceptions.

While the Byzantine Church affirms, especially in her liturgy according to the "lex orandi, lex credendi" perspective that both of these very Holy Ones were sanctified at their Conception, this does NOT imply they are equal in their holiness that is related to their roles in salvation history - that is clearly NOT the case at all!

And the liturgical, pious tradition that St Nicholas of Myra and St John the Theologian were both conceived in holiness too does not mean they were "equal" to the rank of the Mother of God either!

John the Theologian, according to firm tradition which is also celebrated in the liturgy on his feast, was taken to heaven BODILY as was the Mother of God (and Elias with Moses (?) and others). That IN NO WAY implies he and the others were "equal" to the Mother of God!

So now I'm trying to see if there is any way your position could be justified from an Eastern Christian perspective . . .

Have a great day, Reverend Father Deacon!

Alex

Alex,

I am relying primarily on the texts of the feasts and fact that the most ancient feast for St. John is his Nativity (in fact this may be the oldest celebrated feast of a saint) and this is a universal feast that all Churches keep with the greatest solemnity. His conception as far as I can tell is limited to the Byzantines although it seems at one point some Latin dioceses kept it on Sept 24. It is also lesser feast of Great Doxology rank.

On the other hand the Feast of the Conception of the Theotokos is also only ranked as a Great Doxology feast although it does have a forefeast, very unusual for a feast of this rank. Only it and the Procession of the Cross share this distinction. I would add most if not all the Byzantine Catholic Churches have rasied it to Vigil Rank. I do not know if any Orthodox do this, perhaps the Ukrainians?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon,

I'm defending you to the Administrator on the other thread, so please be nice to me!

And I categorically reject that you have a "Latin Mentality" (in case you think the Administrator has any influence over me ).

(I guess I'm the only one with a sense of humour here today, save for Sharon and Tammy on the sexuality thread in the Town Hall.)

The Ukrainian Orthodox don't, but there are Ukrainian Catholic Churches that are dedicated to the Immaculate Conception (rampant "Latin mentality," you know . . .).

I'm still waiting to be convinced - it's O.K. for you to think differently than me on this subject.

For all I know, I could be more "Latin" than anyone here.

And as no post on religion should give one so much pleasure as this is giving me right now, (it feels downright sinful), I'll bid you a good day!

God bless, Father Deacon!

Alex

Alex,

I think we are pretty close to agreement on this subject. Really the Feasts weren't focused on the sinlessness of the conception so much as their miraculous nature for two women beyond conceiving years and the holiness of those being born. It just seemed you were equating the two but you have since clarified that, no problems.

Fr. Deacon Lance