The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Quid Est Veritas, Frank O, BC LV, returningtoaxum, Jennifer B
6,177 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 465 guests, and 112 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,524
Posts417,640
Members6,177
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#130550 01/11/05 10:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
What does this verse mean and how does this relate to the use of Icons in the Church?

Quote
Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.

#130551 01/12/05 01:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
I am not a wise theologan as so many on here are, but...

An icon helps us to transend this world. The icon is written so it does not look like us. It shows that we are to become. Icons do not look like man, they do not necessarily look like God. However, as the council stated because we have seen Christ, we have seen God(not exact), therefore it is possible for the iconographers to write them. We are given all of our sences for worship and our eyes are a major part of our worship. We see then beyond ourselves, not what we are, but what God desires of us.

We do not worship icons, we venerate them as they teach us about the Triune God, and how they call us to live our life so we may become more Christ-like. They tell us of those that have gone before us and Scripture says we are surrounded by a could of witnesses. We are only the church miiitant, by entering into to our worship surround by the icons of the Church Triumphant, we are constantly reminded that as our priests stand at the Altar of Life, we are joined together with all the angels and saints in the worship of our Creator. As our priest hold up our Eucharistic Lord, time is transenced and that same Euharist that Christ held in his hands and fed to the apostles, is placed into the loving hands of man to feed his body. One of the prayers in the Liturgy states, You are always eaten, but never consumed. That is iconography, we have only left this life to be with Christ, but we have not been consumed by anyone or anything but Christs love. So we can celebrate in the written form of joy and love, the written form of the joy of knowing Christ our Savour through his icons.

Pani Rose

#130552 01/12/05 12:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,532
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,532
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
What does this verse mean and how does this relate to the use of Icons in the Church?

Quote
Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.
Divinity is much more than any image, but the icons are windows to that divinity. We don't worship them as idols; but we do venerate them as they represent holy persons and sacred scenes. I once heard them described as 'theology' in color.

Porter aka Mary Jo

#130553 01/12/05 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 53
Yes, the context of Acts 17 is Paul's sermon to Greek Gentiles (i.e. pagans who worshipped idols). There is a big difference between iconography and idolatry.

Peace,
the_grip


“A time is coming when people will go mad and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, 'You are mad, you are not like us.'”
--Abba St. Anthony the Great
#130554 01/12/05 08:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
What does this verse mean and how does this relate to the use of Icons in the Church?

Quote
Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.
God, the deity, divinity cannot be held in the hand like the idols of any generation-- ancient Hebrew or those of 60 C.E. Roman culture...

... and it doesn't relate to the use of icons, as has already been said by at least one other earlier! :-)

#130555 01/14/05 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
R
Member
Member
R Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
What does this verse mean and how does this relate to the use of Icons in the Church?

Quote
Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.
Often misunderstood - this line needs context. He was speaking to the men of his day - so we must know something about the experiences of Paul and the experience of the Jews to whom he was speaking - else the text becomes unanchored from reality. We must know something of the language, the common phrases, the culture and society in which they were.

There was a period in archeology and science when ancient man was looked upon as a primitive child like intelligence. Much of modern biblical research, unfortunately, retains some of that mentality. It is false - a figment of our own grandiose imagination. They were just as intelligent as we - they simply did not have the development of tools that we have today - and we do not yet have the tool other will have tomorrow. However - the evolution of man�s tool - is NOT a measure of his intelligence. It is rather a measure of time.

Some of the scientific and architectural feats these ancients had accomplished with the simpler set of tool - we still do not understand how they did them. Our own intelligence flounders at �how did they do that with such simple tools??� This displays a high level of intelligent equal to our own. And so we should not think of any age of �early� man - as being anything other than - just like us in every way.

The Jews�
Past scholars called them amulets - and archeology has discovered their wide use among the Jews - well before the time of Christ. Now an amulet by definition is some item to which is attributed a superstition of powers inherent to the material of the item. So you will often find it said that the Jews used �amulets to ward off evil�. But the real comparison is with ikons, rosary, prayer beads, crosses on the wall, the Jewish tradition of nailing a portion of the old testament at the main door to their house, religious metals worn about the neck, ceremonies of marriage, birth, and death. .. . and so on. Would it be fair to call these modern items (no matter which Christian religion) as magical amulets?? Incantations? Magic??

Archeology has discovered that among the Jews such religious items abounded in wide spread use. Necklaces, bracelets and other items inscribed with the name of Yahweh or some symbol to represent the God of Israel or the Temple. Statues and inscriptions that remind one of Moses and critical events within the history of Israel. The Jewish people have always been rather gifted at artwork. Once can say that the Temple itself (the most precious gold, the most valuable polished stones, the prized wood of the cedar of Lebanon) certainly represented in the minds of the Jews - the �house� where Yahweh lived - where his presence descended like a dark cloud. Itself - a �graven image� of heavenly things as given to Moses by God himself.

And so there - clearly - was no ban on the Jews - to the use of wood, stone, and gold in order to fashion items of human art for religious use - artwork which depicts events and concept - about God.

Early Christians�
Clearly evidence show that the same mindset carried over to the early Christians. Persecuted at first and their lands and good confiscated to the point of poverty - places of their hidden burial places (often catacombs) were often identified first - by paintings on the walls - depictions of Jesus - apostles - figurative drawings - a slain lamb - a fish - events - combinations of human figures which include Christ himelf - and symbolic figures (cross - fish - tau.. Etc..) etc�

As Christianity developed and became more open � precious items such as gold, silver, polished stone - and wonderful art works of �human art from the imagination of man� (compare this to your quote of Paul) were widely used by common Christians and the successors of the apostles. The height of this artwork can probably be said to have reached its peak with Constantine and the Byzantine empire.

So it is clear that neither the Jews before Christ - nor the apostolic churches after His history appearance - held any ban - on the use of such items to signify (after all - they are just symbols) saints, events, or as specific to the Christians - the human nature of Jesus Christ (God) himself.

So it is clear that there exists a proper use of these items - and an improper use.

As regards the Jews specifically (which Jesus was a Jew) the ban of depicting the nature of God himself within art form - made perfect sense in as much as the Moses theology presented God as a living Providence. The cause - and mover - of all things created and all events - and therefore (not a creature-created - himself) God in his own nature is unknowable to any of the human senses. And so the particular ban on speaking the name of God (which name was obviously spoken and written) and the ban on making statues to depict his unknowable God nature - was itself a symbolic ban that pointed its theological meaning. A - ritual - meaning - expressing something symbolic when used in ceremony. Scriptures talks of the �hands� of God - the �face� - the white hair - and its �engraved� words paint for us a picture of God near to a human King of great age who sites in heaven at a Council of the Gods. This is no different than The Geek portrait of Zeus or the Roman portrait of Jupiter - or any other culture of the time. The written word - the artistic drawing or carving - all human symbols intended to create in our mind and imagination - some image - of meaning.

The Jews do depict the presence of God (sometimes) as a dark cloud which descended on Sinai and �went before them as a pillar� during the Exodus. That is clear from Jewish art - past and present. They often (like Christians) depict God as a man of great age with white hair - above the clouds - looking down upon the earth (think of the Sistine chapel painting).

Egypt�
Moses must be recognized as a governor and a formative leader in the way of Hebrew social life. His laws (religious and social) were meant to give form - to Hebrew social and cultural day to day life.

One must keep in mind that the original Hebrews (a name which means - wandering immigrant) did not have a common heritage, nor linage in historical terms. No more than does the modern day immigrants which come from varied backgrounds, countries and cultures - to the United States today seeking work. Hebrews were foreigners to Egypt - come drifting in from the deserts - to the fertile places of Egypt - seeking work - seeking shelter - seeking to become a part of the most prosperous county at the time. An oasis in the desert of plenty, education, wealth and work. Even less did they have a common language between them� the language of the land (Egypt) became a common language - just as the English directions of American managers becomes a common language among the Polish, Russian, Mexican, Indian - etc� immigrants to America.

Just as (given enough time) varied immigrant communities living long enough in the United States have US culture as a commonality between them - so too we can assume that 400 years or being the working class in Egypt (where class was strictly divided by birth) - we can assume that the original and divers languages of these communities were almost forgotten - and a lower dialect of the Egyptian language was their day to day tongue. Exposed daily to Egyptian philosophy and religion (bound tightly to the government projects they were employed to build).

And so (to cut this short) any ban such as found in the mouth of Moses to the �Hebrew� people who followed him out from Egypt (�You shall not make graven images to worship.� ) MUST have had relevance to something of a misuse of �art images� within Egypt at the time of Moses. Something of which the Hebrew people had long been exposed.

The era of scholastics which gave us the broken Darwin - Evolution of Species - also gave us broken views of ancient cultures. Modern research is well away that Egyptians did not worship animals or animal headed men or any such thing. They did not expect mummies to get up and walk around as the movies portray. These are figments of the imagination of �scholars�. These symbols of ceremony and religion were entirely symbolic for what comes down to a way to express varied aspects of - One Unknowable God. Egypt was monotheistic - Yet the more one is removed from education in some system - the more one is apt to misunderstand that system.. And so, at times in the history of Egypt, is the history of factions (like in any religion) which used religion and the popularity of one or another interpretation - became political tools in the hands of those seeking power. One must be reminded of the era of Europe in which Kings battles Popes - for power. Divisions within religion became - weapons.

Certainly - we have already proved that the finding of Jewish art and artifices, and early Christian art and artifacts - included - art and art items to depict aspects of divinity, saints, and events - of religion.

Blah - blah blah blah�

Now all this just goes to show how important it is to understand the spiritual meaning of any text of scriptures - and how that spiritual meaning (real meaning which we can live by day to day) is anchored to proper context - and often slaughter - by not knowing the context and not taking into account what the church herself may say about it.

Now - to cut right to the heart of the matter� (too late Ray - any one has already ceased reading from boredom)..

The most accepted translation �You shall not make graven images to worship.� is a mistranslation if we are to understand it as it was meant. This mistranslation comes from the mindset of those early scholars who believed that ancient peoples were primitive of intellect and all of them worshiped sticks and stones and statues and were full of superstition. These same scholars also gave us - Darwin - and before that they told us the world was - flat. So the scholarship of any period of time - is mixed - results.

The real translation (in context as well as Hebrew) is �You shall not worship human artwork.� It is not a ban - against art work - nor artwork which symbolically depicts something of the divinity (as we have proven by the use of art work among the Jews and among early Christians).

So rather than interpreter Paul or Moses in strict literal ways - as if we were expected to be robots under a law of which we are not expected to question or understand God�s reasons for giving (something Jesus often tried to free us from) - the context of these in real life is rather simple - rather simple indeed.

Do not worship any art work used in religion - as if it (the artwork) were the divinity - itself.

This has always been a rather simple and basic tenant of the church (prophets - apostles). And no one should complicate this for you.

God in his nature is unknowable to the senses. He is the cause of all nature - and events - and therefore is not - anything to be found within nature (neither stone, nor gold, nor silver, nor sticks, nor fire, nor artwork formed of these).

This is a very basic - and fundamental - doctrine of Judaism and Christianity - and as such - you should already know this. And you should not be having any real confusion between artwork - and God himself.

As a simple and fundamental principle of most traditional religions - you should have no reason to suspect or assume that anyone else (involved in another religion) is having this fundamental and basic difficulty - unless that person is obviously in metal difficulty (stress, psychosis, extreme neurosis) or has fallen to some cult (by which you will see the stress, psychosis, etc� tied to these cults).

So if you know anyone whom is troubling you by offering you a �higher standard of Christianity� - relax - they are trying to be more �Christian� than God would like them to be and in doing that they often attack God�s own children as �less Christian� as they.

Compassion and human understanding based upon good conscience - are the hall marks of a Christian - not - how meticulous we interpreter the laws and rules of religion. Therefore you will find many people who are not members of the church militant (visible) who are indeed closer to Christ than are some members of the church militant (visible). Jesus refers to these when he said �When did I feed you? When did I clothe you? - I tell you if you did that to even one of my little children - you did it to me.� and �But Lord - ! We cast of devils in your name??!! - Get away from me - members of my church though you were - I never knew you.�

Now - after all my words - did not we know this already? Did we not already from our youth - understand this and no one really needed to tell us? We were born into Christianity in many ways - and some of these things are taken for granted here in nations with a long Chritian heritage.

At one peroid of my life I became very frustratied with Chritianity - and I threw of many religious items - including that I broke a beuatiful and rare statuse of Mary. I regret that I no longer have that statue of rare beauty - but in no way do I think I "killed Mary" or hurt God or anything more to my action than - a period of human furstration. While in an Orthodox church I cross myself left to right, in a Catholic church I cross myself right to left - and if I ever get to a Mosque (I have muslim friends) I will bow with my forehead to the ground... and in Synogouge I will stand when they stand and bob my head when they rock and bob thier heads. It is God - that I worship - and I am not confused between Him and human artwork, ceremony and cultural expression. Niether am I bias between any of his children. He - wishes me to be Catholic - so Catholic I am - and Catholic I will remain - but I am just one - of his children - and one of no authoity nor position. Just one - of many.

These are my thoughts.

-ray


-ray
#130556 01/14/05 03:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
R
Member
Member
R Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
I can not help bu think of that Muslim who saved that young GI girls when Iraq was first invaded.. you remember - her maintainence convey lost its way and she was taken to a hospital and abused by Iraq soilders.

A civilian - walked for miles to the front lines and risked being shot by both sides - in order to tell Americans where she was for rescue.

When asked why he did it he said that his father had taught him that we were all - God's children. And he belived that with his heart.

I know not what creed of Islam he is - nor his feelings about Jews and Christins - but I do know that "when I was hungry - you feed me - when I was naked - you clothed me..." and that can only be one person - that I know of.

I would be proud - to bow in Mosque next to this man - and pray that I would do no less than he did.


His intellect did not obstruct his conscience. God arranged the events around him - and spoke to his conscience - and then he employed his intellect as a tool of his conscience to acomplish what his conscience told him he should do. Loud and clear "Here I am Lord! I heard your voice... what shall you have me do?" and he (using caution and reason) did it.

If he were to have die there - he would have been more worthy than I - for heaven.


-ray


-ray
#130557 01/14/05 05:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Quote
Since therefore we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the divinity is like an image fashioned from gold, silver, or stone by human art and imagination.
First, before I forget, RayK ... yes, I read your whole reply biggrin .

My opinion is: No matter how much effort we put into any work of sacred art, we can never imagine the divinity of God. All our works, irregardless of human praise, cannot come near expressing any sense of divinity no matter what "precious" material we use or artistic expertise we possess. Rarely is God the Father depicted, God the Son is depicted only in his human form, and God the Holy Spirit is depicted symbolically.

What we see in icons (good icons) is the highest form our human imagination can display. True icons are painted (or written) after much prayer and fasting and this is one reason why some icons appear more inspired that others. But even then, divinity can never be conceived in our human imagination and therefore our art. It is those "inspirational" icons that speak to our souls and in turn draw us closer to God or whomever is depicted in the icon.

Finally, it seems to me like your quote is saying that because we are the sons and daughters of God (His offspring) that we should know that God's divinity is not a mere perception of our human imagination and talent, as the non-christian (or pagan) may believe, but that God (and His divinity) are unknowable.


Rose2
Iconographer

#130558 01/15/05 02:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
R
Member
Member
R Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,301
Quote
Originally posted by Rose2:
[QUOTE] First, before I forget, RayK ... yes, I read your whole reply biggrin .

Iconographer
You say things so much more simply than I. If you had posted before me - I would have had nothing to say or add. You must make more of an effort to beat me to the punch so that I can relax knowing it all has been said simply and to the heart.

Iconographer - are your works posted on the net somewhere so that we might see and enjoy?

-ray
blah blah blah blah... the yakker.


-ray
#130559 01/16/05 01:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
T
Junior Member
Junior Member
T Offline
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
In regards to the Original post. I think Paul is also relating back to Genesis 1:26. We as humans were created as "imago Dei", and since God is Spirit (John 4:24) the connection Paul is making is a spiritual one. I have seen Icons of Jesus, but am I correct in saying there are no Icons of God the Father? since He cannot be shone Physically?

#130560 01/17/05 04:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Hello Turpius,

Quote
am I correct in saying there are no Icons of God the Father?
Actually, my avatar image is of the Holy Trinity! :-) see ya, wg

#130561 01/17/05 05:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Dear Turpius,
Because Jesus had a physical body, we can portray His image in icons. As for the Father, we can only depict Him as an older version of the Son or in various scripture references, i.e. the burning bush. And the Holy Spirit is also depicted symbolically as a dove or tongues of fire.

As for "Wild Goose's" reference to the Trinity icon, all three persons are represented symbolically as the three angels from the old testament.

To RayK - You are correct, I am simple in thought and speech biggrin and I take that as a compliment. As for posting images of my icon work on-line, I'll admit I'm also lazy frown . However, I'll let you know when I do put my work on-line and you can send me your opinions.

#130562 01/18/05 06:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 217
Quote
As for "Wild Goose's" reference to the Trinity icon, all three persons are represented symbolically as the three angels from the old testament.
Hi Rose2,

Could you supply a reference to the assertion that the Trinity icon is three angels, please. Thanks very much! smile

#130563 01/18/05 09:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 273
Dear Wild Goose,

The Trinity icon is an interpretation of Gensis 18.

Please allow me to quote from an book on ancient icons by Viktor Lazarev:

Quote
Biblical tradtion relates how three very handsome youths appeared to the old man Abraham and how he and his wife Sarah had given them hospitality in the shade of the oak of Mamre, feeling in their hearts that the three youths embodied the three Persons of the Trinity. Byzantine, Eastern Christian, and Russian artists linked with ancient traditions were used to representing this episode with a wealth of details: they would show the table set with food and Abraham and Sarah busy serving the angels; they even introduced an additional episode, the sacrifice of the calf. For them, this scene was first of all a historical event which happened in a specific place and at a specific time. Rublev (the painter of this icon) deliberately distanced himself from this interpretation. He eliminated all secondary and non-essential elements from his icon: missing are the figures of Abraham and Sarah, missing is the sacrifice of the calf and even the abundance of food spread on the table. All that is left are the three angels, the table, the Eucharistic chalice, the oak of Mamre, the house, and the rocks. Every hint of action, every allusion to the historical aspect of the event portrayed in the icon are eliminated in his interpretation. The angels are presented as the symbol of the one and triune God and as the prefiguration of the Eucharist.

In Rublev's icon, created to be comtemplated for a long time, there is neither movement nor action. The three angels are seated in deep silence on three low seats. Their heads are slightly bowed, their gazes intent on infinity. Each one is immersed in his own thoughts, but at the same time, all three appears as bearers of a unique experience - humility. The focal point of the icon is the chalice hold the head of the sacrificed calf, which in the Old Testament is the prefiguration of the Lamb of the New Testament; the chalice must be seen as the symbol of the Eucharist. The hands of the angels in the center and on the left are blessing the cup. These two gestures provide the key to understanding the complex symbolism of the composition. The angel in the center is Christ, absorbed and pensve his head inclined to the left, He blesses the chalice, thus expressing His will to offer Himself in sacrifice to atone for human sins. The inspiration of this act comes from God the Father, the angle on the left, whose face express an immeasurable sadness. The Holy Spirit, the angel on the right, is present as the eternally youthful and quickening principal, as the "consoler". And so what is depicted here is, according to the Christian Church's teaching, the act of of the supreme sacrifice of love, the Father offers the Son in expiatory sacrifice for the world. But the artist went even further at the same time. He pictured the act of supreme obedience, the Son's freely choosing to suffer and give himself as a sacrifice for the world. Here, Rublev transformed the traditional iconographic type into a most profound symbol which move us to reconsider this very ancient theme in an entirely new way.
As you probably know, most icons are specifically based on scripture text. Studying the holy scriptures is an essential part of an iconographer's life.

Thank you for asking.

#130564 01/18/05 10:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,532
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,532
Rose2,

Thanks for that fine reference. I had read that about the icon, but wasn't sure where. It does clarify and gives one much food for contemplation.

Blessings from,

Mary Jo ...who is glad to be back. smile

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0