www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Satan/the Devil... where? how?

I will contact you privately.

-ray

Wild Goose,

If one does not believe in the Devil then one is guilty of heresy and has fallen into Satan's trap. The Church clearly teaches that Satan is a real spiritual being. What you are saying is stupid new age crap that is against the teachings of Holy Mother Church.

Michael

Dear SERAPHIM41..

I wanted to thank you publicly for our phone conversation in which - I was enlightened very much by you. You quite possibly are the most valuable person I have talked with - in a long time. If you lived nearby I would definitly be at your door for hours of chat. Thank you for considering me a friend.


Now... I will spare this thread any further comments on the subject.

-ray

Dear Mike0126c:

Wild Goose is not a member of the catholic/orthodox/byzantine etc.. churches. As such... it is impossible for him to be in heresey or hertical.

Besides ... we really do not know his true opinion on the matter - as he likes to stimulate discussion.

And he is very good at that

-ray

Dear RayK, thank you my friend and brother in Christ!

The Dupped Goose responds...

and as this is a place to Focus on Scripture...

might I add that Mother Church's Scriptures record Jesus saying, "I saw Satan fall..."

Jesus, Son of God, son of the Loveliest Mary, Theotokos, as recorded by The Doctor of the Church, St Luke (10.18) says, "I saw (past tense) Satan fall (indicative that the power of the one fallen is over and done with)..."

This experience of Jesus' response to the disciples' powerful mission to the towns hearkens back to Is 14.12 where the king of Babylon 'falls' and to Ezekiel 28 where the prince of Tyre 'falls.'

Yes, let's focus on Scripture... not the myths of the Apocalypse of Moses, OK.


With the Death, Burial, Descent into the Abode of the Dead/Hades/hell and Resurrection of Jesus Christ (Christos Anesti!) whatever power (people believed) satan had is finished. It is over and done for. It has come to an end.

Otherwise, we might as well not be saying "Christos Anesti!," right? Christ is Risen-- satan is fallen.

Have we thought about this? Have we questioned (if?) where (we say) the Church teaches 'this or that?'

I don't think we have.

Will it take courage to think about this. Will it take Faith to challenge the assumptions of what folk say the Church says/teaches? grace and peace, wg

Hello Michael,

Perhaps you would do well to show us where the Church insists on a belief in the devil.

What I'm saying comes from the Scriptures Mother Church has given us. blessing, wg

From the Catechism... [vatican.va]

This am excellent point. The Scriptures tell us that the devil walks about the earth like a roaring lion - seeking those whom he might devour.

We ignore Satan our risk.

Dear Ray,

A young girl that I love dearly, considered jumping on some railroad tracks and committing suicide because of severe depression. When I heard that, I began to recall some things that the Evangelicals spoke about, as well as Holy Communion.

With a great deal of fighting and fuss, (fortunately she was still young and innocent), her mother managed to get her to take communion Immediately her severe depression ceased.

Now she attributed her cure to meeting someone she knew in a camp, but we let her realize differently. Of course it wasn't and isn't the end of her troubles. She became depressed once more when she posted her high grades on the computor. She immediately fell into a state of depression and wasn't able to attend school.

Well something told me to ask her if she posted her grades in her diary on the computor the day she received them. She had and I asked her if a certain past friend of hers, that had become her enemy, dabbled in witchcraft. Well it happened she did.

I could go on and on but I really want you to know that we live in a world encompassed with evil. I think that it would be a good idea to see who is around the girl that is a 'cutter' and take her to a monastery or a very devout priest...if you can manage it.

Zenovia

I don't think you have been dupped my friend.

Some of the context of the biblical quotes have to do with history - a view that since the fall of Adam (the beginning of world history in the Jewish view) Satan had his way until the appearance of Christ onto the world scene - and after Christ (now with the continued presence of Christ) Satan is defeated even if still active.

Now on to an explanation�

There is a world history view (just given)�
an eternal view (where all time is present at once)�
and a personal view - shown in scriptures.

These three views can be confusing.

Since Satan is a pure spirit (intellect, will and memory) without material body like we have - he is first and foremost an experience to our mind (spirit to spirit). Not bound by time - as time is bound to the physical world of change. Satan�s �roaming the world� refers to his not being bound by time and history (in other words - a body). He can act (with permission) in the past, or present. No created spirit can act in the future (only God can do that because the future he decides what it will be and so he knows it already).

1) World History�
If we look at world history as a whole (the context of humanity as a whole) Christ �defeated� (not really a good description if you ask me) Satan with his resurrection. That is the story on the world stage. That defeat was Christ�s personal defeat of Satan - remember Jesus� temptations etc.. This was a personal act of Jesus defeating Satan. In the same way we can say that Communism was defeated just a decade ago. Yet - Communist parties still exist in Italy, China, and many other states. And so Communism as a whole - was defeated - even though individuals and some states still live Communism.

2) The Eternal View�
God is the only uncreated spirit (and the definition of spirit is - intellect, will, and memory). All other spirits are created. That is they are principles or powers that are a mind - and - can be experienced by � like. That which is a created mind can be experienced by a like created mind.

Body - can not experience mind. And so our body nature can not have an experience of what is only spiritual in nature. A simply way to say this is that our body senses can not have an experience of another person except as another body. We can not (with our senses) know another person�s mind. We can see evidence of it (he smiles, he frowns, etc..) but that is a reading of the evidence and we may be mistaken as to the content of the mind.

Our soul - is that power which is the special relationship between our mind (spirit) and our body. It is the �glue� which allows us to move body with the will and direction from our spirit.

Being that the case� we have the free will - to invite or turn over control of our own spirit through intimidation or fear - a fear of death in its many forms - and hence body also we may turn over our mind (spirit) and hence also body - to another mind (spirit). A prime example of this in an area which is related is the subordinate relationship of the - masochist to the sadist. The masochist allows the sadist to dominate the masochists spirit (mind) and body - in an almost total submission.

3) On a Personal Level�
That which exists in an experience of the mind - has an existence - only in as much as it is an present experience.

For example - fear - can only be said to exist - when it is being experienced. When a man turns from fear to being bold or peaceful - fear - no longer exists in the man. It is gone. It is not gone to �another place�� it has no material body. Fear does not more to some hidden place to await the next man to infect like a virus � fear is a spiritual thing (and experience of the mind).

While we are forced to use words which come to us from a physical and sense experience - to describe that which is not physical but is spiritual� if these words are restricted to their material meaning - we can be confused and mistaken.

Although Jesus defeated Satan within his own humanity (he did not fall to personal temptation) and Jesus defeated Satan on the stage of world history (he was the first and only human not to fall into sin)� Jesus� personal and historic triumph - did not and does not abrogate our own - free will.

As example: Paul (Saul) was free to chose to participate in the murder of Stephan - which murder took place - after - the historical resurrection.

And about the members of the new church who were teaching that the members of the new church should be circumcised and cease to work and cease to marry because the return of Jesus was just months away - Paul and John call these heretical members - anti-Christs (meaning the were church members willfully defying the authority of the apostles and teaching something quite other than what the apostles wanted them to teach).

----
Satan exists - but not in the same way that a car exists - or a President of the US exists .etc� this form of existence is predicated on the body - bound to time and location. The victory over Satan - exists - but also not in the same way as wars between men (which begin and end on the level of the body).

Satan (the name means something like �deception�) is not easy to conceptualize without using imagery based in the physical world of the senses� a �star� fallen from heaven (the sky) is just such and image. Obviously Stan is not one of the material stars that we can see with our eyes - up there in the night sky - otherwise we should shoot a nuke at him and be done with him.

While Satan�s defeat on the - historical level in the history of humanity - was the event of the resurrection of Jesus Christ � again I say - this does not abrogate our own free will. We may refuse to cooperate with the spiritual influences (experienced in our own spirit) or we may willingly cooperate.

No one is brought into heaven (symbolized as a place) and no one is brought to hell - against their own free will choice. The man who builds a house brick by brick - will eventual have the house he chooses to built - and when it is all built - he may find that he does not like it at all - but it was - him - who built it by choices of free will all along the way. A man can fool himself - falsely reason a false justification� he always knows in his conscience the truth of matters - but he may chose in his mind (intellect) to skew that - and ignore his conscience.

Heaven is union with God - hell is the lack of union with God. We make our choices day by day - even if we chose to hide the reality of our choices from ourselves.

Does Satan exist???

No� not in the same way a tree exists - or a General of an Army exists - or a house exists.

His existence is spiritual (he is a pure spirit) and that means that all we can say about his existence is - he is present to someone who is experimenting him - and not present to someone who is not experiencing him.

There is more to be said by that would take too much space.

Hitler, Son of Sam, Charlie Manson, Stalin, and no Osamah Bin Laden - - these were/are people who were definitely under the influence of Satan. They invite Satan (who is himself limited to a spiritual existence) to work in the world through their mediation.


The key to understanding how it is that God allows Satan (by whatever name) to exist - is to be found in the necessity for each human to have a free will.

Love - can not exist - without free will.

If a man chooses �not-God� �. and there is no alternative - how could a man choose �not-God�� ?? This is simple.

Free will predicates a choice between this - and - that.

God desires we freely choose him - but he will not force us - and so he allows an opposite alternative to exist (with limits). Understanding Satan and his limits - is not an easy thing. One must also understand sin - to understand Satan. It help to bump into him from time to time. A little experience in the area tends to bring some knowledge about a thing.

No-thing and no event has self-existence. We tend to forget that. God �lends� existence to things and events. We are also a thing. We do not exist by our own will or our own powers of existing. We do not self-exist. Neither does Satan.

God can (bad choice of words here) turn Satan on - and off - at will� or better said .. At need. (hehe).

What would be - the need for Satan (you might ask).??

Sin is not something you can see� none of us can see into our own person. It is impossible. Our senses of mind and body - can not be used upon that which originates the senses. So sin within us is unknowable - unless - it is reflected into something that IS knowable by our senses.

If God did not allow our inner sins to be reflected �out there� into the areas of the senses - we would never know out interior lack of union with God. Do you see?

Satan is a �servant� for a purpose. He is restrained to the function of that purpose. A dog on a leash� he is no threat to God. He does not �war� with God over souls. But God does allow a restrained �war� in the spirit of men - so that men can go from a lack of God to a fullness of God - through free will choice and cooperation.

If man is to overcome his own fear of death - man must at times be confronted - by death itself - in its forms.

If we attain �heaven� by the growth of virtues (does anyone remember what these are??) there must be a ground - in which virtue is tested� proved� challenged� etc�

Niether science nor philosophy can rqach by way of reason - to the existence of Satan�. Satan is not a scientific object nor an object of philosophy. One can not see by using his hands and one can not grasp by using his eyes� the levels of sciences (knowing of knowledge) are these�

The sciences that have to do with senses objects (the physical sciences).
The sciences that have to do with objects of the psychological mind (the philosophical sciences).
And theological science - which can not be reasoned by the mind alone but must have revelation as an aide).

While we tend to being at the bottom (physical sciences) and rise from there�. To the next two�. The causation of sciences in proper order of the procession of creation is�

Theology science
Philosophy sciences
Physical sciences

The procession of creation being in theology - and then �flows� into philosophy (things of the mind) and finally into physical nature. �So above - so below�

The items of Theology pre-exist - items of philosophy. Pre-exist is here used to indication a foundation on which the other stands or is built or exists. It is a casual relationship. The items of theology cause the items of philosophy which in turn cause the items of physical senses.

As example: the artist (the greater thing) causes the artwork to take shape and exist. The artwork does not cause the artist to exist.

-ray

A few years ago an Orthodox priest asked my opinion of a situation he encountered.

It was a woman who went through periods of being woken up at about 2 AM night after night - by demonic guttural voices that hurled abuse and swearing at her. And she often would experience even physical blows to her body. She had been institutionalized in the past for these periods when they got bad.

A bit of research proved what was happening.

She had grown up in a home where the father continually humiliated his wife (her mother) and daughters. She was abused mentally and physically (I do not know about sexually but it does not matter for this). When she got to be a young woman - she married a man like her father - which is to say her husband was also abusive to her and humiliated her.

Her husband, quite naturally, passed on his attitude to their son and when the son got old enough - he too joined his father in humiliating and abused his mother. He had gotten from his father�s attitude that this is the right thing to do - the right way to treat mom. And of course mom thought this was the way she should be treated also. And so everything fit into place comfortably.

Coinciding with these periods of demonic possession- for which the psychiatric authorities were over their heads and could only medicate her and lock her up for her safety - and religious authorities were at a loss for (so far) - was that her husband had recently retired and spent a lot of time with the TV, and her son was going off to college.

You see - both males - had ceased to humiliate and dominate her - they now had other interests (work pressure was off the retired husband so he relaxed in life and escaped life through constant TV). She was no longer in a familiar environment which here subconscious habits had been formed to cope with.

So what was happening is that she had no habitual subconscious structures to respond to long periods of being without humiliation and abuse - so her own subconscious was supplying her - with what was needed to give her security and familiar surroundings. She was not equipped for any other style of life.

Once we gain habitual and automatic responses to any certain life style - life becomes easier within that life style through the - automatic nature of the subconscious. Our subconscious is now trained to automatically respond in the best ways for our survival.

We are comfortable with what is familiar to us and uncomfortable with what is unknown to us. We like the known - and are frightened of the unknown - this is just the way the subconscious works. We know which way to go and what to do in familiar surrounding and have anxiety in unfamiliar surroundings. It is a thing of habit and automatic responses.

So - she had no way to deal with periods in which she was not being humiliated and abused on a regular schedule (so to speak). She had no subconscious structure by which to operate in an environment that lacked humiliation and abuse. And so it was her own subconscious that was waking her late at night - and supplying her with what was needed to make her feel secure and within a familiar environment.

So you see - this was not - demonic possession in the sense of being possessed by an �other�. All involved were getting to the point of naming this woman as a real case of demonic possession - but it was not. It is a case of what is called �self-possession�. Our own inner dynamics. Such conditions may become a gate way for �other� possession - but that was not the case here.

The last I know of the situation (I assume the priest paid some attention to my advise) these episodes had lessened and she did not need to be institutionalized again. She is doing OK now.

There are several inner dynamics taking place in the subconscious and emotions of a cutter. I will not get into that too much as I am just learning - but they can be understood. There may be environmental factors involved (past family environment) or not. In some it is clear that family environment did the initial and major subconscious programming - in other cases it is clear that environmental influences were not a main factor but were probably and enabling factor (unwittingly conductive).

One critical ingredient of a cutter is an inability to express normal anger and normal aggression - weighted to the opposite pole - of an inordinate desire to �do what is right� and please authority. A dominate and submissive cycle which we all have - but it these has become a bit of a problem.

We are all tired of going to the doctor and having them place us in category A, B, C, or D � when we do not fit into these as defined. And so we are lucky if something works. If we do not fit into A, B, C, or D - then we fit into E (send his to another specialist) and there we encounter another set of categories which they try to fit us into. Doctors no longer spend time with us to get to know us - they rush us along on a conveyor belt of pre-defined categories.

We must be careful - not to do that with people. This pre-canned cure thing - is the cause of its own aliments of mind and body. Especially spiritual aliments that eventually show up also in body.

As example (and I have many of them) one time this mother took her son to a psychiatrist because the boy was experiencing back problems that we pulling his spine to the side. You could bee it crooked on his back under the skin. The boy was often in great pain. Several doctor�s could not find a physiological cause - and so they recommended a psychiatrist for the boy. The mother took him to a physiatrist and started to uncover deep troubles between the boy and his father. He was given anti-depressants. The boy was starting to go into panic attacks which made it difficult for him to breath and raked him with paralyzing fears.

Eventually I told the mother than the boy did not have problems between himself and his father - but if she continued to take him to the psychiatrist - he would eventually develop just what the psychiatrist expected to find (category A, B, C or D etc..)

I recommended the boy be placed in a back brace (something that should have been done a year ago) and that she step down on his anti-depressants with a goal to discontinue it.

Now this was no miracle on my part - I just saw what was happening and I knew she would not understand the explanation - so I just told her what to do. Three weeks later the boy had an unusual and great pain in his lower spine - as his vertebrate - went back into proper place) right - no doctor had believed they were not already in the proper place - including on xray etc..).

I talked to the kid several hours (one on one alone) and actually manipulated him into - emotions - crying and screaming - yes! ANGER! That is what I wanted from him!!! which he had kept bottled up these years of back pain.

Short version� His back has a weakness in the lower vertebrate which allows them to slip out of place when his mental stress causes his muscle tension to get strong - pop - it pulls the vertebrate out of place. Why do his muscles tension and pull so hard? Because he never let himself get angry. His anger at all these crazy things - settled in his back on the left side.

I told him (the boy) that he could not remain a child forever (that is what he wanted to do) that the same as he can not stop his body from growing - he must also cooperate to grow his own personality - he must realize that life - calls us to move on - and we must accept that. If he does not then he will remain unhappy and his body will grow and one day he would be very surprised to look in the mirror and see an old man there looking back.

The boy is fine today. He only has the normal teen problems to contend with and he faces them pretty well. He must pay a little attention to his weak vertebrate but active exercise helps keep any muscle tension - even (instead of too strong on one side).

In my limited experience - I do know this�

The bottom line to any of this is the same as we must all do - that is - pay attention to our own conscience - and cooperate with Providence (reality as directed by God). When we ignore that for too long - the spiritual illness that results - may have a symbolic reflection into the psychological and physical. Since we can not see into our soul - there is a need for a reflection into the senses of the body - so that we may know there is something skewed on the inside - and that reflection is symbolic of the �condition� in the spirit (mind).

While some of these symbolic things are general to all humans - most are conditioned by experience (society, culture, family, race, etc.. etc..) and of course personal experiences - so reading them is rather a bit of an art than a cold code breaking.

So the person helping someone else - must - make a human connection. A genuine human connection. It all begins - or fails - there. The two people must become a �we� rather than remaining an isolated you over here and me over there.

Once we know where - we - are - the question is - how do WE get �. there - from here - once WE know where - here - is?? How do we pay attention to conscience amidst all our troubles which seem to demand all our time??

One we know that we are lost in the forest - taking trails that - are like a labyrinth - each promises a way out - but each leads back to the forest - it eventually dawns on us - we have been wasting all our time - and time has a limit.

We need a map - and a compass.

Providence is the map - and conscience is the compass. We must often refer to the compass which tells us which direction - now. And all this means (not to make it seem esoteric) that we must take people as we find them. We must learn to speak their language (a language of experiential experiences) and we must do that first.

Far more people are helped by - listening to them - than by talking at them. And our purpose of listening to them is to see what they see - experience what they experience - and then we help them look at the compass (often) of their own conscience - and get moving in the direction it is pointing.

Anyway ... having wandered my mind now for this long post... this all is a subject very close to my heart. And I am grateful for your story which (knowing you from this forum) was no doubt the best thing to do at the time.

-ray

Dear Ray,

Each situation is different and everyone's experience is different. Sometimes I realize when everything is 'spinning' in circles and it seems that there are no solutions, prayer is the only thing that works. Through it comes the enlightenment within one's mind an heart that will make someone start perceiving things differently, or will give them the strength to change themselves.

When I try to help, I start with 'subtly' telling a person to pray. I know that when they start, be it ever so slightly, the Holy Spirit will enter their heart and mind so that what was once a negative action and thought on their part will becomes positive.

What I believe though, is that the negativity is the result of attacks. I firmly believe though, (and I have had a lot of contact with Greece), the 'evil eye' is alive and well.

Zenovia

Dear Wild Goose,

No one can give another their own experiences. I for one have 'been shown' the evil entity within another, and it is the most frightening thing one can see.

You are merely deceiving yourself by believing 'he' is non existant in today's world. He exists in everything evil that occurs. As Pope John Paul said when asked why he didn't try to find out who was behind the shooting, (when he was shot), "we know who it was. It was satan."

Zenovia

and my Greek relatives would agree with you all 32 of them

-ray