www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Satan/the Devil... where? how?

Hello,
Im not sure how to jump in here.[Just hit the- Add Reply- button I guess]

Most of the protestants I know believe in the "devil" and his activities pretty much the way the "Orthodox"[?] position has bin described here. I have bin a bit surprised by the way things are spelled out as being a either/or, tradition or scripture, by Wild Goose.
I am well versed with this type of teaching[no more devil problems today] but have always heard it more in the line of protestant vs protestant.

By the way I have bin lurker on and off for a year or so. It seems to be a "providence thing" that Ray aluded to that happens in one life now and then and for me it seems to be a season [a few years now] concerning Catholic/Orthodox issues.
I have read a fair amount of posts here and it seems to have a leavening effect [the good kind] over a period of time. Things that I have strained to understand [because of my protestant methods of processing information ect. ect.] somehow, inspite of myself, begain to make sense all on their own. Maybe Im becoming orthodox from the inside out no matter how much I argue with myselt late into the night. A little scary .

The intigrated way of dealing with wounded people, as expressed on this thread, [the whole person] is one of the things that has a drawing factor to orthodox/catholic "big picture" aproach to things.

Thank - Unimackpass

Thank you for speaking up Kim

There is an underlying unity between Roman Catholic, Byzantine, and Orthodox. We are all catholic (a Greek word meaning universal) and share the sacraments - and that may be what is growing in your depths. And of course Protestants also share our basic beliefs.

All children under the sun - of One God.

Now that you have spoken up - please do not hesitate to join discussions.

-ray

Can I ask what you mean? do you mean that you think it was Providential that you came here and began to read - lurk??

-ray

Ray- thanks for the invite to post.

It seems that things have bin providencial in the sense of running into people, books and, yes, web-sights that all connect to a simular direction.

A groop in town got carried away trying to bring the Nicea Creed into doubt, and by doing resurch I found myself being drawn even more in the Orthodox/Catholic direction. One of many examples.

One of the things that has kept the pull going is reading how central the understanding of the trinity was to the early church in worship and all other aspects of life. The incarnational understanding. That continuation is pressent today in the ways you mentioned above.
thanks

By the way Im a 46 yr old dad of a wonderful 14 yr old daughter.

Thanks Zenovia,

There's a famous photograph of His Holiness visiting 'satan' in jail. He forgave him and prayed with him.

Jesus once (at least!) called Peter Satan... but this 'satan' later led the Church! :-)

Evil power is thoroughly human... as you yourself witnessed. grace and peace, wg

Greetings wild goose-

as I mentioned in a previous post I find it intresting that this is being aproached from a tradition vs. biblical point of view. I strugle with some things concerning tradition but in this area I don't see it as such.
When Paul was in Ephesus [acts 19] he had major demonic encounters. Acts 19:14-16 in particular is descriptive of this not being of a psychological nature. Of course this is just one of many biblical refrences.

My first thought on the pope talking about the devil being the prime mover is the pricible Paul talks about in Eph where he says, "that they once followed the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is NOW at work in the sons of disobedience."

It seems that John Paul saw past the person that he forgave to see the spiritual force that was moving him.

The protestant world has its own "traditions". One of them is dispensationalism. Is this the point of view you are aproaching this from.
Thanks
Kim

You're welcome Kim,

When looked at fairly carefully, one can see that Scripture and Tradition part company on the issue of the reality of a satan or a devil or demons or demonic power.

Many of the ideas about satan in particular do not originate in any of the books of the Catholic Bible nor the Orthodox Bible. When those ideas started to grow and gain popularity, there were other books that Christians (and Jews) knew about and read, but those books never made it into the Canon, neither the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Apocrypha nor the Deuterocanonicals.

This development took place between the last two centuries before Christ and the 1st and 3rd (or 4th) centuries of the Christian era.

Just one example of this is the attachment of the name 'lucifer' to satan in the 3rd century A.D. The word translated in Isaiah 14 as 'lucifer' in the King James Version of the Bible is the Hebrew for Day Star, a reference to Venus! Yet how many Christians use the name lucifer as the given name of the satan?

Here, clearly, Tradition supplants Scripture. Most knowledgeable scholars in Catholicism and Orthodoxy know this, but many of the laity do not.

With reference to your question about 'dispensationalism' let me firmly say that that movement has been thoroughly discounted by all serious theologians among Protestant academic folk. It holds no water or weight with me! grace and peace, wg

wg
we definatly agree on the dispensational aproach to scripture as being a bit "out dated". Having said that I know alot of well grounded fruitful christians that see christianity through that particular "matrix" and they are doing just fine.Although there is much more richness waiting for them

There seems to definatly be some confusion with the Lucifer/Satan King James issue. I would like to look further into the early church perspective that you mentioned-
wg- Many of the ideas about satan in particular do not originate in any of the books of the Catholic Bible nor the Orthodox Bible. When those ideas started to grow and gain popularity, there were other books that Christians (and Jews) knew about and read, but those books never made it into the Canon, neither the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Apocrypha nor the Deuterocanonicals.-

Are you saying that there are writings that better explain the demonic but that they never made it into the Canon?

Howevere, how is that suposed to effect ones perspective of the recorded acts of the apostals in the book of Acts? I am trying to understand the fraim work that these conclusions are coming from.
thanks-
Kim

WG...

Should we believe that you also do not believe that miracles have happened .... and stuff like the bleeding wounds of St. Padre Pio and St. Francis of Assisi are either faked or totally psychosomatic?

Where do you stand on the Resurrection of Christ? is it explainable by natural means?

Just asking. I am not going to prove any point by it.

-ray

Ray-

it is intresting that you should bring up cases of the stigmata and ST. Padre Pio.
The history chanel did somewhat of a fair overview in this area, that included Padre Pio, with view points from both sceptic and believer.

One of the sceptics said that because there was actually no trace of wounds after his death that he thought it ment he couldnt keep causing them himself. I have a small burn mark on my arm the size of a half dollar that happend in 1979 that my daughter always points to.

St. Padre Pios' wounds were much worse of course. They showed pictures of his hands after and there was not one sign of a scar. Miraculous is the only excplanation.

Of course you know much more about this than me . Im just getting caried away.

kim

I met him once briefly. Asolutly no doubt that he was the genuine McCoy. Examined by atheist doctors and Jewish doctors - one must believe them.

Just when we think we have everything all tied up nice into logical boxes of reason - some event like that comes and blows it all away.

-ray

Wow,
you are the first one that I have diologed with that actualy met him.

I have read a little about his life. It seems that the Lord was very real to him and sharing in His burden for the lost world. A intimate "fellow ship of His sufferings".

The victim soul calling sounds quite difficult but also a reward of communion that only the Lord could bring.

beyond understanding

thats good

Hi ray,

Assuming you've asked tongue-in-cheek... in my book it is impossible to say Jesus is Lord... if He isn't The Risen One!

All other 'miracles' pale in significance compared to this One. grace and peace, wg

p.s. sorry I've not checked in in a while...

No problem.

No... I was just trying to get me bearings on what you believe.

So it seems that, beyond the 'big one' you do believe in types of miracles - outside of nature - taking place within nature. Yes?


I am in some confusion regarding the state of Chritinaity in Europe. It seems to have shrunk to tiny. Vast old churches empty. And a general actually hate of traditional Chritianity - as dark ages stuff.

Sometimes I see European Christianity as suffering under a bit too much Rationalism. Where all the miracles (scriptural and such) can be totally explained in the light of modern understandings of nature.

This type of view - discards tradition - and the mystical. And the mythic. I make no comment on that being good or bad.

Modern Christianity (what is lelft of it in Europe - has become - rational - and kind of 'winks' the eye at those who do not know better (having been formed by traditions created in a more superstitious time.

That seems to me to be the natural results of swings on religion (love �em - kill �em) that rocks Europe from time to time for so long. I would tend to say that Europe has seen and produced more wars over religion that anywhere else in the world.

The Reformation - the Crusades which came out of Europe - sects wiped out from time to time. Hugonutes(sp), Templers, Masons, Rosicrucian�s, alchemy, secret societies, - a number of times France killed all Catholics it could find - and at the same time a few French Catholics wrote magnificent works. Waves of spiritualism. And the heights of Christendom took place in Europe. Luther, Calvin, Germany, - hate the Jews - hate the Muslims - spent a lot of time fighting off Muslims at its boarders. All and all - right or wrong - the wars �for and against� religion in Europe - has been far more turmoil than any other place or time in history.

The French Revolution - replacing religion with Rationalism and Reason - swept everywhere - at the cost of much blood. Napoleon fancied himself the Christian Caesar -inquisitions, on and on and on.

In comparison� religion in America has been stable. Chritianity in America (begun by Puritan refugees from persecution) - has been relatively peaceful with not one religious war.

It appears to me that Europe is again in an anti-religion mode. Christ must be rational - and not esoteric and mysterious - if pockets of Christianity are to survive in Europe.

I have occasionally read stuff and watched the news over there - and it paints George Bush as a religious fanatic because he used the word �evil�. While some may agree over here (smile) I do not think they are really aware of how Europe in general - is disgusted at - any - Christian America still is. Europe sees Christianity - as a world problem - and America (being the most Christian country left) as a pack of outdated and superstitious people who are out to �crusade� the world into more wars. American still living in the dark ages of Christianity.

I remember the news items about the overwhelming majority in the EU - wanted absolutely no reference to God at all in any EU documents. And this, from a land in which Christianity had been so foundational. I have seen (especially British and French) news commentators practically spit on the floor at a mention of Christianity in America. It shocked me. I had not known this existed so wide spread in Europe. It seems that anything to do with a Christianity still tied to tradition - is thought of as a major problem on the word stage. Christianity must turn into a rational philosophy - or perish.

Anyway - just some observations about Europe in general. Maybe you can give me a more accurate picture?


Believe me - I am not trying to make any point. This current subject is too difficult to discuss (deamons and such). Very complicated in the psychology.

Cheers Mate.
-ray

Again, sorry, I was away for three weeks for three different reasons and too busy last week!!!

It's hard to be succinct re Religion in Europe, but I'll try.

Religion is far from dead in Europe; Christian faith is far from dead in Europe. One could say that there is a Revival happening in...

wait for it...

...

Russia. Yes, Russia. Even Russia. Your/Our Orthodox cousins there are seeing some amazing things. I saw some evidence of this when I was there two years ago.

Some 5000-7000 young people of the ages 17-30 attend Taize EVERY week in the Summer holidays. (www.taize.fr [taize.fr])

And I've not even addressed the situation of the Free Churches, largely conservative, evangelical smaller bodies.

The spiritual temperature of Europe might be hard to take... but when the thermometer is looked at closely, one sees that the 'Body' isn't anywhere near death!!! :-)


Re demons: you hit the nail on the head... it's to do with Psychology. And we cannot say that many in the developed world live with a view of human psychology that matches that of the Biblical era, Hebrew Bible or New Testament. In some places in the developing world, the worldview re demons is very close to that of the NT... but that doesn't mean that it is reality based. It is based, therefore, in a lot of what we would quite easily call superstition, period.

Christian Faith, today, cannot abide superstition, not least in the developed world.

So it is imperative that Christian scholars take all we can of psychological/psychiatric/psycho-analytical knowledge to the Scriptures when looking at this issue of the Devil/Satan/demons and such like. To do less is to be unfaithful in my estimation.

We don't live in the world of the Bible. We don't live with their understanding of how the world functions. blessing, wg