www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Orthodox Archbishop Warns of "Catholic Temptation"

Dear Yuhannon,

Let's not put all the eggs into the same barrel. Mormonism is actually further from Christianity than Mohammadism. Or so I was shocked to find out. In other words it is a greater heresy.

As for Protestantism, we have the main stream ones with their everything is relative theology. They are drifting further and further away from the teachings of Christ. For example: Abortion and Homosexuality.

Then we have the fundamentalists whose theology is formed by being in opposition to the RCC...Much in the way all Protestant denominations did at some time in their past. To them all Catholics are certainly going to hell...yet they do maintain the moral teachings of Christ intact. Maybe even more so than us. Problem is that instead of edifying others they spend their time condemning other denominations. The question then becomes, do they really love God, or do they love themselves?

Then we have the 'pure hearted' Evangelicals who the saintly Father Groechel said some would put those in his Church to shame. These people only want to do charitable works, and spread the 'Good News' through the only way they know how. They are the one's that have been blessed with phenominal organizational abilities. Too bad they can't accept our teachings and become a movement under a united Orthodox and Catholic Church...We certainly can use their talents.

I don't see these Protestants as being the enemy, even though it might seem so in the Middle East. The enemy is secularism, materialism and the worship of sex in the world today. In other words we are now worshiping 'Venus' and 'Bacchus'. Most of us are Pagans.

It is this paganism that has strengthened Islam, in the same way that Communism gave rise and strenthened the Nazi movement in Germany.

As for Lebanon, bravo for them! Hopefully they will be lighting the torch for us to follow.

Zenovia

Shlomo Zenovia,

First, the use of the term RCC is insulting to nearly all Catholics on this board since the Pope is not our Patriarch and we are not members of the Church of Rome.

Secondly you state: "I don't see these Protestants as being the enemy, even though it might seem so in the Middle East." Well I am from the Middle East and we go to where the threat is. We have been able to keep the Protestants to less than 1% of all Christians. We do this by having proper theological training. Protestants only gain when the people are ignorant or too poor to fight.

We in Lebanon, have setup radio, television, and universities so that our people can learn.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

The Some Orthodox CHurches and Catholics also have intercommunion in other middle east countires other than Lebanon, for example in Iraq and other countires where Islam is the majority religion. These agreements are typically with Syriac based Orthodox churches and Syriac based Catholic Churches. THere have been no such agreements that I am aware of between Greeks and Russians of either church.
The Syriac Apostolic Christians have wised up if they don't join at the communion table they will be quickly be an afterthought in lands where Islam is the majority religion. Apostolic Christianity in Russia and Greece are filled with empty churchs as these churchs have identified the wrong enemy - other apostolic churches and not secualrism and sectarains.

Why do I get the feeling the Patriach is getting itchy in the Ukraine because his church is empty while Ukrainian Catholcism is having a revival of sorts under a western minded President who is for religious freedom and will allow for the free practice of religion in the country. For centuries Moscow has been forced on these people even though at one time 2/3 of the church once gave their allegiance to communion with Rome and having their own church with no ties to Moscow. But Communism destroyed the peoples wishes and the communist destroyed their ture enemy Catholcism while striking deals with the Orthodox Church willing to compromise.

Well, the Churches of the MP in Ukraine are hardly empty and actually, the MP has the majority of parishes in Ukraine still, followed by the KP. I pray for a truly canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine (MOscow may not approve but the Ecumenical Patriarch could take them under his wing) I don't know really what to make of the Ukrainian Catholic Church moving to Kyiv. There are historical justifications for it but also great problems assciated with it. Time will tell.

Dear Brian,

As long as the UGCC doesn't start having public processions with icons of St Josaphat, I think they'll be O.K.!

The Ukrainian Orthodox don't seem to have a problem with the UGCC, even though they're not canonical.

But one day perhaps.

The good news is that the Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Catholics, most of them, are getting along in a way they never have before.

Those against this move are essentially the Russian Orthodox and I do not condemn them, but only their particular ecclesial/imperial ideology.

The Georgian Orthodox Patriarchate sent along its representative to be present at the UGCC event as well . . .

I pray that we have a canonical Orthodox Patriarchate in Kyiv in communion with the EP.

Alex

I am hesistant to remark on such matters, but it kept bothering me for the days this topic has been on here. I spoke by phone to a Russian Orthodox Preist about this topic and he surprised me by saying he is well aware of this topic! His own personal belief is, he doesn't view this as "Catholic Temptation" he said many people in Russia, Ukraine etc. all had to be Orthodox under the Soviet Union, he remarked that his heart tells him if Russia and his own Russian people are free, then if they go to the Catholic Church or the Greek Catholic Church to visit and see for themselves what "it's all about" they should be free to do so!

Dear Seraphim,

Well, with Russian Orthodox priests like that - I think we'd all be Orthodox!

Alex

Allow me, as a lurker to post my 2 cents worth. First off, I believe that it is important to state that I am a member of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (I'll wait for the boos and hissing to die down!} as well as a graduate of the seminary at Jordanville. I live in Pittsburgh i hytorim/bisiduyu po nashemy. I am from the town of Poroshkovo in Carpatho-Russia and am proud of my Malyi-Rus heritage.
Allow me to state that not all of us "Evil Orthodox" are up in arms about the Greek Catholics moving to Kiev. Personally, I would rather see people become Catholic than Baptist's or Jehovah's Witnesses. Let the people go and see and learn, then they can make an intelligent decision. I don't worry about the Catholics converting the Orthodox by proselytizing. It rarely happens. Look at the situation that you have in America. How many Orthodox convert to Catholicism, as opposed to the number of Eastern Catholics (as well as Latins) who convert to Orthodoxy? I can use Pittsburgh as an example. ROCOR established it's first mission here in 1984. Today we have 4 full parishes in the Pittsburgh area, (McKeesport, Belle Vernon, Clymer and California)with over 400 families between them, and there is talk of another. We are growing, Slava Bohy! Our converts aren't coming from the Protestant Churches, or from Jews or Muslims. Over 80% of our new members are coming from (you guessed it!), the Byzantine Catholic Churches. All for a number of reasons, both liturgical and political.
As an outsider looking in, it appears to me that the powers that be in the Greek Catholic Church seem to be confused as to what they want to be. The people here still go to Kennywood on "Ruskie Dyen", not Ukranian Day or Ruthenian Day. If you ask those still left who built the Greek Catholic Churches here in the 20's, they will tell you that they go to the Russkie Tserkov, as opposed the the Polskie(Latin)Tserkov. The Byzantine Church has abandoned it's beautiful Prostopeniye chant and Slavonic services, and have made something that is not quite Latin, but is something that would still be unrecognizable to the Baba's i Dzedo's of it's current parishoners. Our new parishoners are simply returning to what your bishops, unfortunately, threw away.

On my frequent visit's to the South Side, I am amused by the attempts by American born Ukranian Nationalists to convince me that I am Ukranian. (Always in English though, you should see the looks that I get when I answer them in Ukranian!)

But to return to the situation in the Ukraine. I think the fear there is not of Catholic proselytizing, but of the Ukranian Nationalistic flavor of what is occuring. The 2 schismatic Orthodox Churches that have sprung up are also guilty of this. So much so that the Battle Standard of St. Michael the Archangel is flying over the Lavre at Pechersky and Pochaev, and the Zaporozhian Host is guarding the Holy sites of Orthodoxy. I truly fear civil war may yet come. The meddling of the EP there has not helped the situation. The EP is not the "Orthodox Pope", and is just another bishop, no more and no less, and as such has no right to interfere in the diocese of another Orthodox bishop.

In closing, I just want to say that we have to get along together. We have much in common, much more than what separates us. Come to our services, and we'll teach you what your bishops have forgotten. We come to your functions. My mother had a wonderful time Monday in Uniontown! And remember that most Orthodox do not view your Church as the enemy. Just those that would use your faith for political motives.

S'Bohom
Alexandr

Alexandr,

I think you are absolutely correct!

A possible future ROCOR member
Ray

Dear Alexandr, your two cents worth is warmly received and thank you for your comment on this topic. I hope more from ROCOR join in on this as all "sides" or "churches" should be represented to bring more understanding among all of us.

Dear Alexandr,

I am glad to read your sentiments, especially:

"I would rather see people become Catholic than Baptist's or Jehovah's Witnesses. Let the people go and see and learn, then they can make an intelligent decision."

One little correction though. Baptist's are Christians although, (with the exception of the Southern Baptists that still seem to hold the basic tenets of the Christian faith), they have probably fallen far from the 'truth'...Along with the Methodist's, Episcopalians, etc. Jehovah's Witnesses on the other hand is purely a Jewish religion. It follows only the Old Testament.

In Christ,

Zenovia

Alexandr,

I think you really touched on something! Perhaps a nerve?

Dear Yuhannon you said:

"First, the use of the term RCC is insulting to nearly all Catholics on this board since the Pope is not our Patriarch and we are not members of the Church of Rome."

I say:

I heard that a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Well now you know mine is plenty wasted. I certainly don't think. So now I offer you my apology's for the insult...

Zenovia

Dear Alexandr,
Nice to hear from you - and thanks for the information. This is a rather "broad Church" forum, so there might be some people on it who for whatever reason dislike Orthodoxy in general and/or the Church Abroad in particular, but these are certainly minority views in this happy-go-lucky crowd. The Church Abroad has been doing magnificent work in several areas of discussion, and we are all the richer (spiritually, that is), for her presence.
Nonetheless, I have a criticism, although not of either Orthodoxy or the Church Abroad. Pride in one's own ethnic origin is admirable, and so is the effort to understand and use the relevant language(s). But please, I implore you, please LEARN at least one of the languages in question - and for that matter learn the English spelling of the words needed to discuss the matter! OK, I'm a purist; I admit it. But disavowing a particular ethnicity while consistently mis-spelling the name of the ethnic/national community in question is unlikely to win friends.
Metropolitan Laurus, as I have good reason to know, is a magnificent linguist and is himself Carpatho-Russian (no apologies to those of the same ethnic background who prefer a different nomenclature: people are entitled to call themselves what they please, within some semblance of reason, and Metropolitan Laurus calls himself a Carpatho-Russian and calls that language Carpatho-Russian); His Eminence is certainly sympathetic to the ideas you offer - and will certainly agree with the suggestion I've just offered you!

If you ever have the opportunity, do go and visit Transcarpathia. You're in for an uncanny experience: the place looks like Pennsylvania!

Incognitus