www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Did St Paul hate women, was a question posed by a friend

I can't imagine how/why someone thinks this way, but...
A cyber friend got into a discussion in which the other woman made the statement that St. Paul hated women. Now please tell me where in Scripture does someone come up with such nonsence? How did something like that get started anyway? Any ideas.

I know what the Scripture says and that is not it!

I think St. Paul emphasized the complimentary roles that men and women have. I certainly don't think he hated women, he just realized that men and women have different strengths, both of which are necessary to make a family work. I know the feminists don't like him, but let me ask you, have you ever met a happy feminist?

LOL!

hmmmmm Yes, quite a few actually.

That's great Brian!

The ones I have met in the Greek Orthodox Church and elsewhere are angry, hard, aggressive and mean spirited women. The Orthodox ones profess to be working for the Church, but have no love, peace of the Holy Spirit, and gentleness in their hearts for other women..especially those who don't go along with their agendas--whatever the agenda du jour might be.

Sorry that we seem to be at odds today.

In Christ,
Alice

ALice, please forgive for anything harsh I have said to you!!! Although we disagree on some things, I think we both agree about the unity of the Churches and I'm happy about that!!!
So, 2 weeks before Forgiveness Sunday, please forgive me, a sinner!

Dearest Brian,

Ofcourse I forgive you, and also ask for your forgiveness.

I find your gentle and kind nature most refreshing and quite endearing. Actually, judging from your profile, (you seem to like the arts) I think that we have alot more in common than just a desire for ecclesial unity.

I pray that you will have a blessed Lenten season...as it is fast upon us. I think that life is too short and our salvation too precarious for obsessing about politics or anything else of this world.

We all have different experiences in life that form our outlooks, and we should try to respect each other to that end.

God bless you!

With love in Christ,
Alice

I think that feminist theologians and I know there are some who, BTW, are not all women, do give Paul's words a certain negative slant.

If we take what Paul said in the context of the time in which it was written I don't think we can conclude St. Paul hated or didn't like women.

Actually he was known to take counsel from his friends both Aquilla and Priscilla when he stayed with them. Women often helped him in his ministry.

If we take what St. Paul said and try to apply it to our own time that is when conclusions can be made which are negative toward women. But all scripture should be understand as to first what it meant when it was lived so as to understand what it means now. We have the guidance of the the Church to help us in that.

He did tell women 'to be silent' in the churches. But this doesn't mean women have NO voice today. During Paul's time women sat together in the assemblies across from the men. They may have been prone to chatter with each other and make noise. He was simply telling them to save it and discuss it with their husbands later when they got home. If this same thing happened during our liturgies today it would not be inappropriate for the priest or deacon to tell them to be quiet.

Paul never married and sometimes this is used as an argument that he disliked women. Many saints have never married and that doesn't mean they disliked or hated members of the opposite sex. How could they be Christians following Jesus and hate half the human race?

In all fairness though I have known sisters, priests, and theologians who give St. Paul a bad rap at times and take what he said out of context.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

Conversations by St. Josemaria

Women in Social Life and in the Life of the Church

You refer to the presence of women in public life, in politics. What do you consider the specific task of women in this field?

The presence of women in the whole range of social life is a logical and entirely positive phenomenon, part of the broader phenomenon to which I referred earlier. A modern democratic society has to recognise women's right to take an active part in political life and it has to create conditions favourable for everyone who wants to exercise this right.

A woman who wants to play an active role in public affairs has an obligation to prepare herself adequately, so that the part that she takes in the life of the community can be responsible and positive. All professional work demands previous training and a constant effort to improve one's formation and to adapt it to the new circumstances that may arise. And this is very specially true for those who aspire to occupy leading positions in society, because they are called to a very important service on which the entire community's well-being depends.

A woman with adequate training should find the field of public life open to her at all levels. In this sense it is impossible to point out specific tasks that correspond to women alone. As I said earlier, in this field what is specific is not the task or position in itself, but the way in which the work is done. There are values which a woman more readily perceives, and her specific contribution will often, therefore, change the whole approach to a problem, and can lead to the discovery of completely new approaches.

By virtue of their special gifts, women greatly enrich civil life. This is very obvious, for example, in the sphere of family or social legislation. Feminine qualities offer the best guarantee that genuine human and Christian values will be respected when it comes to taking measures that affect family life, education. and the future of youth.

I have just mentioned the importance of Christian values in the solution of social and family problems, and I want to stress their particular importance in all public life. Just as for a man, when a woman takes part in political activity, her Christian Faith confers on her the responsibility of carrying out a genuine apostolate, that is to say, a Christian service to the whole of society. This does not mean representing the Church officially or semi-officially in public life, and even less using the Church for your own personal career or for party interests. On the contrary, it means forming your own opinions with freedom in all those temporal matters in which Christians are free, and accepting personal responsibility for your opinions and actions, which should be always in keeping with the Faith you profess.


In His great love for us all,
+Fr. Gregory

There are many questions as to what St Paul's view of women are, partly because there are books attributed to him which most scholars do not think are his (the pastoral epistles), and these books did seem to push more limits on women than the true Pauline corpus.

Some would even say that these epistles were written to undermine what Paul allowed. If you read I Timothy, for example, he is talking about women needing to be silent and learn from men. Women are said to be easily decieved, just like Eve. By looking at the text ,it is clear that they are talking about more than just "within church" because he is talking about the relationship between men and women outside of church functions (such as in marriage -- no one has ever suggested Paul is saying childbirth should take place in churches).

So if you remove the pastoral epistles, the Paul is harsh against women line does not make sense. If you believe they are his, it does.

Yet even if not Paul one needs to wrestle with the texts, because they are in Scripture. We do not need to be fundamentalistic about them, and so we can work to understand them in context and interpret them appropriately. Context is very important, but people need to be sure they don't make contexts which are invalid (again, those who say the passage in I Timothy refers to within the church ignores the text).

There seems to be within the early years of the church a division of the role and status of women. They were given a strong, supportive role early, but the development of the church even within the NT leads to an indication that some reaction was being undertaken in reference to the Gnostics, and the role they placed to women. Texts like the Acts of Paul and Thecla, or even legends about St Mary Magdalene, were seen as a threat of sorts, and so again, the pastoral epistles seem to be counteracting this, though with a very hash, rhetorical, view.

Good Morning, Henry,

I will grant you that there are different ways of looking at that passage from I Timothy. The topic here seems to me to be whether we think St. Paul hated women or not.

My points were in support of St. Paul because I think even if he made a few comments in which he was hard on some (women of his day). overall he didn't hate them. On that I think we must agree. As for another author who may or may not have written I Timothy - the church has included the letter in the canon which doesn't mean, I know, that St. Paul, himself, was the author. So you make a good point there. If we look at the letters and the life of Paul in its entirety a hatred of women is not a motiff. Not sure about the connections with Thecla although I know that comes from extra-biblical sources.

Thanks. May you have a fruitful Lenten season.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

Why heap all the blame JUST on Paul? Here�s a link to an article by an orthodox writer (with an obviously feminist worldview) who says the Scriptures, the church fathers and all who hold to the �androcentric exegesis� of Scripture are to blame for the �second class� treatment of women in the church.

http://www.ocl.org/traditions.htm

I think a more revealing question is �DO SOME WOMEN (FEMINISTS) HATE PAUL?� Then again, maybe it�s really JESUS they have a problem with? Our Lord, in answering the Pharisees concerning divorce (St. Matt 19:4-6) quotes BOTH Gen 1:27 and Gen 2:24 (the verse immediately following the account of Eve�s being formed from Adam in Gen 2:21-23; of course, these and other creation passages are NOT liked by our feminist writer � alleging they promote inferiority - �women are second in the order of creation and first in the order of sin� � my answer � if you have PURE gold, and take some gold from the PURE gold � how does that make the gold taken out �second class� or inferior?). Of course, ST. MATTTHEW is to blame for putting these words in the Gospel, right? Was Jesus just being a chauvinist by choosing 12 men to be apostles, etc? Then again, maybe they hate the CHURCH FATHERS? Or, could it be - the WRITER OF GENESIS? Maybe it�s THE CHURCH? After all, it has been the �androcentric� decisions of the Church which have included I Timothy, etc in the canon and have excluded women from the priesthood, right? Oh � now I see - that which does not comply (after all �nothing is sacred�) with the feminist philosophy/agenda is �the problem�. That makes things a bit simpler. Not much left, though. And now, if I could only be convinced that the �feminacentric� worldview/exegesis/hermeneutic is the �measure of all things� and a great gift to the Church � although, it looks more like a Trojan horse to me �

In Christ's love,

Woody

For more information see:

The Feminist Gospel: The Movement to Unite Feminism With the Church by Mary A. Kassian (a former feminist)
Women, Creation and the Fall by Mary A. Kassian

Twice Liberated: A Personal Journey Through Feminism by Frederica Mathewes-Green
or
Gender: Men, Women, Sex, Feminism by Frederica Mathewes-Green
(www.frederica.com [frederica.com])

Thanks to all that responded.

Tomorrow I will have my friend take a look at your responces. I am sure she will have the necessary ammo to go back to the woman that made the statement to her.

Pani Rose

Pani Rose:

(A little tongue-in-cheek)

Do you think that St. Paul was simply like the rest of us men? Maybe we just don't understand women. (If I did, I'd sell my consulting services to the rest of my gender and make a fortune. )

OK, now I'll go back to being serious. It's been a long two days, my brain is fried, and I'm not able to focus.

BOB

Bob,

There is probly more truth to that statment than we want to admit.

Pani Rose