www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings The elders in Rev 4

Hi all,

I have a question on this verse and those that follow when the scriptures speak of the elders.

• Rev 4:4
  4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Can I assume that these elders are not angels?

Can I assume that these elders are humans?

Can I assume that these elders once lived on earth in human form?

Thanks,

BradM

Let me deal with �that these elders once lived on earth in human form?�� first.

John specifically tells us in the introduction to this vision that he is not talking about a �place� or time. He is �in the spirit� (you can think of this as in an ecstasy or being totally absorbed in Christ) and taken �into heaven� which means we are not talking about a physical place of any particular time (in fact it would be better to think of this as all time - at once) we are talking of something which the mind alone (spiritual portion of man) can experience. To contemplate the things of heaven is to �see with the mind� its profound significance which is above all normal experiences. The vision and its events, as far as literal description, are symbolic and point to that reality which the senses cannot experience.

The 24 elders are �presbuteroi� which means humans and angelic at the same time and sometimes means the �stars of heaven�. The word is used early on in the Revelations (the letters) to mean bishops but not in reference to their physical human nature but to the spiritual life they live. Man is both spirit and body and which meaning of presbyter comes to the forefront depends upon the context surrounding it.

The central figure, around which the elders are, is obviously God the Father (the creating God) as he alone is seated on a throne, and is surrounded by a rainbow (the Noah-tic sign of the covenant between God and man) and before him are the �seven torches of fire which are the seven spirits of God� which is a symbolic reference to the Menorah (seven candle stick) which stood before the Ark in the holy of holies in the Temple - making this the sign of the Jewish covenant and Israel�s God. The figure on the throne is Israel�s God.

Various interpretations have been made for the 24 elders over the centuries. Some have compared this to a doubling of the constellations of the zodiac making this to have the meaning of �all the stars in heaven�. Often in literature like this a star or stars represents saints (men) and angels and only the context used tells us which meaning or if both meanings are intended. Others compare these 24 to the top tier of High Priesthood in the Temple services (I think these is some validity to that).

However, in the vision the central context is Elohim (God the Father) in his role as King of Israel. He is surrounded by the rainbow of Noah (the sign of the covenant) and placed before his throne of the Menorah exactly as it was placed within the Holy of Holies of the earthy Temple and this two is a sign of the Mosaic covenant. The Ark within the Holy of Holies is also really a throne upon which the King of Israel sits or the �smoke� or �cloud� of Presence descends in order to sit for judicial matters. Within the seat that the Ark was - was kept the Law or covenant agreement between the King as his people. Other nations at the time had their own �ark� and that was not unique to Israel. What was unique is that human kings sat upon the thrones of other nations and the mysterious presence of Providence was enthroned upon the Ark-throne of Israel.

This makes the 24 elders correspond more with the 24 courses of the Jewish priesthood (12 or 24 depending how the courses are counted) but there is also a comparison here with �the council of the King� which draws a comparison with the King and his cabinet of ministers.

This makes the 24 presbyters to be co-rulers who are united in will with the King (God) and as a distinction is made in this portion of the vision between the elders and the angelic host standing near by - this makes the 24 elders symbolic of - saints - but not necessarily physically dead ones but all those who �have spiritual life� be they past, present, or future - physically still alive or physicaly dead. It is a universal meaning.

The 24 elders are seated on thrones (co-rulers with the deity) and they too wear crowns (meaning they have the power to govern) meaning that they have been charged with governing a part of creation and their own authority comes from God (they submit to the King their own crowns).

The four �living creatures� are taken from Ezek 1:5 (more proof that Revelations is meant for Jewish readers and speaks to the effect that Jesus is the God and King of the Jews) and represent many related things - but put simply we can say that here in this vision the four living creatures represent the four eons of the earth (meaning all of time) and the full governing of God over all earthy events that have ever come to be or shall ever come to be. In that sense they represent �all of creation�.

The only thing this Liturgical scene is missing - is the entrance of the High Priest, the only priest allowed witin the Holy of Holies - and I believe that is next.

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.

-ray

Brad they have also been compared to the old and the new testament saints. Representing the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 Apostles. A symbol for the fullness of the faith.
Stephanos I

Stephanos,

This is my understanding as well. I don't know when the zodiacal references first appeared. I do know that there are synagogues in Israel from the third century A.D.(I refuse to use C.E.) which have zodiacs in the floor. But even if this is true in the third century that does not translate to late first century. Moreover, if the reference to the 24 elders were a tip of the hat to Hellenism why would these figure so prominently as leaders of worship in this otherwise grand vision?

I believe the 24 elders are in fact the 12 tribes and 12 apostles which indicates that the worship of God spans both covenants. (I think this interpretation also has application to the 144,000 but that is another subject.)

I fully agree with Ray that this vision is a vision of heavenly or authentic worship. This is the worship in which we participate every Sunday in Divine Liturgy. As such the 24, I believe, are represented by the order of Cantor or Reader. I believe we must revive our minor orders.

I'm not sure how much it matters whether these elders were once human. That they are created beings fully in accord with God is what is important. We participate in what they are doing eternally.

Another interesting topic is "Who are the four living Creatures?" I believe they represented by the major orders. But that is another question.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Friends,

Well, the Coptic, Alexandrian tradition has feast days for both the 24 Elders and for the Four Living Creatures in its calendar.

The 24 Elders are the 12 Apostles and the 12 Sons of Jacob.

The four Creatures are non-descript holy beings who converse with God regularly. Some have said they are the four Evangelists.

But they are celebrated liturgically by the Oriental Churches.

Alex

Dan,
Great post and I am with you on the re institution of all of the orders. I mentioned that and it was shot down immediately in our Church ( off course the radical feminist voice).

Now I am NOT and anti Novus Ordo guy, nor one to insist on Latin in the liturgy (although it has its pride of place in Gregorian chant) but I was looking at the old liturgy and it was so much richer than what we have now. Too bad that the orders couldnt be restored and and English version of that liturgy.
Stephanos I
Not a Patriarch, just and unworthy monk and archsinner

Dear Stephanos,

You should become Eastern then!

And a number of our bishops are unworthy monks these days . . .

I've been to at least two of our Churches where the "Four beasts" are represented with the symbols of the four Evangelists.

I don't want to get totally off topic, or else I'll hear from Cantor Joseph . . .

Alex

Orthodox Catholic
I am already "bi ritual" and the day I retire I will serve a Byzantine Community who is finacially struggling to survive and have been asked to do so.
But I will be quite open and honest right now it is a matter of retirement issuses.

The liturgy is so much more spiritual and up lifting.
Stephanos I

Dear Arch-sinner Stephanos,

You mean you are "Bi-ecclesial."

The newly ordained Reverend Father Deacon Lance taught me that one.

Alex

If you will permit, let me rush to Stephanos' defence: I think that "bi-ritual" may be correct.

As I understand it, it is not possible to be bi-ecclesial. One can only be a member of 1 Autonomous Catholic Church. There is no "dual citizenship" in the Catholic Communion.

However there are ... "multiply entry visas" or "work permits for non-citizens" available, i.e. one can receive permission and faculties to function and serve in another Autonomous Catholic Church using another rite than one's own.

Ergo, "bi-ritual" does not mean one belongs to 2 churches, it's not possible. But it does mean that, while retaining one's membership in one's own autonomous Church, one can function according to the rites of another Church and in that other Church.

Herb

Yet, interestlingly, the tribe of Dan is not mentioned among the 144,000 (Rev 7), but the Joseph tribes are mentioned not as Ephraim and Manasseh, but as Joseph and Manasseh. The lack of of anyone from the tribe of Dan among the 144,000 led some commentators to speculate that the Antichrist would be a descendant from the tribe of Dan.

Furter notes follow.

The concept of a Council of the God exists in all early Eastern cultures.

The Egyptian (the dead is brought to judgment before a council of the gods)
http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/ennead.htm

the Greek (Homer�s Odyssey mentions it)
http://www.literaturepage.com/read/theodyssey-17.html

The Greek Parthenon is dedicated to it...
http://www.mistral.co.uk/hammerwood/elgin.htm

Roman... where Zeus presides over it...
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/mythology/zeus.html&edu=high

And also our Semitic brothers. I believe Rabbi Morgenstern wrote much on it.
http://www.huc.edu/aja/Morgen.htm

And it appears in the Bablonian Gilgamesh Epic.

The start of Zechariah chapter 3 opens with the scene being Joshua standing before the Council of the gods in heaven. The council is often called "the Son's of God".

Micaiah relates seeing this spectacle. (1 Kings 22:19)

Psalm 89:6-8 speaks of it.

In the open of the book of Job describes the council in session and Satan comes into the presence of the Council. (Job 1:6)

Ezekiel Chapter 1 begins his description of the heavens parting and his witness (in vision) to the Council of the gods in session. Here is also the origin of the �four living creatures� carried over into Revelations. The face of a man, lion, calf or Ox, and eagle. Their wings supporting the heavens (crystal like firmament) above which is the throne of God seated in the act of presiding over the council in session.

In Isaiah (63:1) the one whose royal attire (the robe of a High Priest) is �red� from blood, who looked around and no one stood with him, �and so I crush the grapes alone in my anger� my own right hand accomplished deliverance�. This is the Son of Man who speaks of himself as both human and God. Notice that his speech here slides back and forth (or combines) both the vengeance of the Father and the sacrifice of the son upon whom that vengeance fell. This encounter takes place with this bloddied High Priest coming into the presence of the Council (in other words he has died and comes into the presence of God yet he is also God himself in human body).

God highest name in the Jewish tradition is Elohim (He-the-gods) a singularity of the plural. An interesting structure. Elohim is translated in many ways according to the context used - for example� the wandering judges of early Israel (wandering prophets who were invited to settle local matters) were �elohim� and angels are elohim also. The name itself (He-The-Gods) indicates a the council group and we see that in early Genesis when Elohim speaks his decision within the council and it is binding upon the council (�Let us form man in our image.�). While some Christian writers see this as spoken by the Trinity (�us�) they miss the council setting.

This is perfectly understandable in the early years of the Greek fathers when it was a contest between some Christians and Jews as to the meaning of events of the Old Testament. Some Christian commentators tending to see types of Christ in almost every little detail of the Genesis narrations and Jews countering that through finally writing down the oral traditions and further legends surrounding these portions of scriptures. The end result (as far as Genesis is concerned) is that both supplied 'historical data' in support of thier positions which resulted in turning Genesis more and more into a literal history rather than the cosmogony that it is.

Of course this is not to exclude that this line is being spoken by a Trinity and in fact the old testament does display God as a trinity of Father, Son of Man, and Holy Spirit (that which descended upon the Ark). So it is that these Christian commentators are right but for the wrong reasons.

So yes, the scene in heaven that John describes is a Jewish scene, it is liturgical and has its reflections in Temple worship and later Christian liturgy in as much as Christianity is the extension and continuation of the Mosaic covenant to the gentiles.

I believe Scott Hahn�s book (The Lamb�s Supper: The Mass In Heaven on Earth) does the job of showing how this section of Revelations corresponds to early Christian liturgical practice.

Like most of John�s visions it has Jewish roots, and this particular section of Revelation we are dealing with has its roots in the Son of Man prophecies of Daniel and Ezekiel. This particular section is actually a continuation or in context of Esekiel's vision of being taken to witness the Council in session.

The idea that the four living creature might have once been human - misses the boat (I am not saying this is what you believe - I am just commenting on the subject). The Council takes place in eternity and is at the foundation of creation. The four living creatures represent the foundation of creation. And so it is just as well that the four gospels )often associated with the four living creatires) also represent the new foundation of creation that took place within and at the moment of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is entirely what John�s visions are about).

In a narrative or literal sense this 'begining of time' which which is the primary function of this Council of the Gods takes place at creation's foundation (and so Genesis begins right away with this council in session) but the foundation being spoken of takes place right here and right now at all times. The �foundation� of creation is the foundation of - this moment now - in as much as every moment in creation flows �downward� from the Godhead at every moment in its act of Providence. This is the concept of creation by the act of 'procession' where every act of creation proceeds by way of proceding from the Godhead or divine nature - through intermediaries in a sacred hierarchy (Pseudo-Dionysus: The Celestial Hierarchy). This procession is known to the Greeks as an �ennead� consisting of three tiers of three each .

The first tier being - seraphim, cherubim, and thrones.
The second tier or middle being - dominions, powers and authorities.
And the third tier being - principalities, archangels, and angels.

This �upper� heavenly or Celestial Hierarchy is reflected in the lower Ecclesiastical hierarchy (which reason Pseudo-Dionysus gives the Celestial Hierarchy first and the follows it immediately with a description of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy) and the Liturgy taking place in heaven also takes place on earth. If you read Pseudo-Dionysus give his description of the Ecclesiastical Hierarchy and its function - you will note that the Ecclesatical has the same function as the Celestial Hierarchy - and that is to �Let us form man in our image� through catechesis and initiation by baptism (Chapter Two) and admittance to the central mystery of Eucharistic communion (Chapter Three) which he calls the �rite of drawing-together� not only in the sense of bringing the community together but also and primarily the united God with man.

Please excuse my typos.

Dear RayK,

You raise a fascinating point - the way exegetes handle the appearance of the Lord to Abraham in the form of Three Men!

That suggests a Divine Council, of course, and then there is the "We" that is used "Let us go down" etc.

From a numerical, mystical point of view, the twelve Elders are added to the Four Creatures to come up with the number "16" and added together this is the perfect number "7."

The seventy disciples of Christ relate, of course, to the seventy judges appointed by Moses as well.

The New Testament speaks of the role the Apostles will have as judges of the world - an advisory role as councillors of Christ.

There is also the way in which the number "12" is often extended to include "13" - the Patriarch Joseph is often not included but only by way of his two sons.

And St Paul becomes the 13th Apostle even though there are only supposed to be 12.

In the Eastern Churches, we pray directly to the "Divine Council" of all Three Divine Persons in the Trinity, the most frequent way of prayer whereas the West more frequently prays to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit.

Fr. Karl Rahner refers to this as the East's "social conception" of the Deity and the frequent invocation of the "Council of Saints and Angels" etc. together with the very social conception of the Church.

So you see how superior we Easterners are to you in the West . . .

Alex

Herb,

Bi-ecclesial is the more correct term. For example, a Latin priest asks for faculties to serve the Ukrainian Catholic Church and they are granted. He can serve the Byzantine Rite Liturgy but he is not automatically entitle him to serve (on a consistent basis) in every Byzantine Rite Church. He would need faculties from each Church he wishes to serve on a consistent basis.

In Christ,
Fr. Deacon Lance

Bless me a sinner, Father Deacon Lance,

Thank you for correcting the record.

I somehow knew Herb was way off . . .

Alex