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I've cut some of the material included here from a previous thread and retitled it at the request of the posters.

BOB
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Ray Kaliss
Junior Member
Member # 2284

posted 08-03-2006 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Ray Kaliss:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elitoft:
The idea of progress still needs expanded understanding,
Eli
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Thank you for your kind way of putting this.

Let us be able to discuss and share thoughts and spend patient effort o understand the other. It has often happened that the people who initially disagree with me (even violently) have later become my greatest friends. Alex and I often went head to head a few years back - and then - we came to understand each other and found we are much more alike than not. Believe me - I am not looking for people to nod in agreement - if they are not in agreement. At times (I have found that) I learn the most from people who - disagree with me. Who else would force me to think and to research more??

It may be that John Climacus (I assume that is what you mean by St. John�s Ladder) is not arranged as a ladder of steps but rather 30 principles (logi). In reading him I had never considered it one way or the other. I took each chapter for itself. And so it is interesting that it is not arranged as such (a ladder) but is rather 30 principles. As logos and logi can be interpreted by a few similar ways� I hope you accept my word �principle� and we agree that it is not (the exact translation) really an issue. The issue that you bring up is that - Climacus is not arranged in a ladder of ascent.. I believe you.

In my original � when I wrote that the spiritual life is a progress that has been allegorized as a - ladder - I did not have Climacus in mind.

What I did have in mind was (formost) Gregory of Nyssa (�from glory to greater glory�)


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Preface to The Classics of Western Spirituality - Gregory of Nyssa - The Life of Moses

Communion with God is a constant ascent �from glory to glory.� Each step of this ascent includes the joy of further expectation, the knowledge that He always remains greater than anything we can know of Him, and also that He gives Himself to man without setting any limits, because of his own inexhaustibility.

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And also The Ladder of Perfection (sometimes called the Stairway of Perfection because the description is actually of a particularly magnificent spiral stairway found is some English churches). And also St. John of the Cross (you remember his diagram of ascending up mount Carmel) and the traditional levels of spiritual growth (Purgative / Illuminative / Union) which is tradition to both East and Western mystical theology.

Such ladders are based upon the concept of the alternation (while ascending in growth) between the catophatic (represented by the positive wooden rung) and the appophatic (the negative and empty space between each rung). As John of the Cross expresses it - darkness followed by light - followed by greater darkness - followed by greater light - on up to the greater degrees of Dark Night of the Spirit - culminating in the mystical marriage (union).

Such a figure (the ladder of ascent - the climb from earth to heaven) to image the progress of spiritual growth - has its Christian roots in Old Testament times going as far back a �Jacob�s Ladder�. OT and Jesus himself often used the image of the progress of :: the betrothal / the preparation of the bride / the wedding and feast / lastly nuptuals and consumation.

As to the idea of �getting ahead� by ones own efforts or planning (if I understand you correctly) I agree. And a search on the past posts of RayK will display that I have always held such a view. While there is a progress (a progressive change to our mind, our heart, and to our humanity) it is not accomplished by one�s self application of any set of rules or formula. It is not attained though self-applied �behavioral modification� (as for example done in modern therapy ) nor as the result of further learning (as one learns to be a doctor, a carpenter, a teacher, etc..). In fact such efforts (and belief as to how we become sanctified and what spiritual growth is) is probably the major - setback - of most Christians. As Paul says (�The Law has justified - no one.�). Now� you may perhaps not agree with me here. These are difficult to talk about and easily misunderstood. I certainly do not wish to argue about the meaning of such words and terms.

This is not to say that we do nothing (on our part) of our own efforts to change our ways. We fall into Quietism that way. No� rather � abandonment to Divine Providence has its moments of being passive (to God action) and its moments which demand effort and action.


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I would not want to minimize the saving grace of Baptism for an infant simply because they are tiny and may throw it away in sin, as they get older. It is not magical, that saving grace, but it certainly is miraculous and gracious, and freely given to the undeserving.

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Yes. I understand you. I understand (and agree) with your thoughts as expressed. But may I note (and please take no offence because you have already displayed your self very capable) that there is a difference between �saving grace� (if we call that - salvation) and spiritual progress to mystical union.

Salvation (as used in the early Council documents) is likened to the salvage of a ship ready to sink. The ship is prevented from destruction and pulled to shore. The ship is saved from destruction - but that is the end of the definition. �Salvage� does not include the concept of further repairs of improvements. That - is the work of - sanctification - or justification - and is progressive. One might think of it as passing through purgatory (not a place of course) here on earth before our physical death. To the extent that we are purged - here (before physical death) we need not be purged �after death�. Or in the way of the East - far less tollhouses after death.

The word �salvation� in early Council documents was also synonymous with the sacraments. The sacraments - were - the embodiment of - salvation (as given to the church). And so in many places in early Council documents when we read �salvation� we are to think of the seven sacraments of the church. And this use (salvation-sacraments) also displays that in the mind of the church� the receiving the sacraments (properly of conscience) are salvation (saved from destruction) but are not cumulative to sanctification. Let me express that in other words: a self-plan of receiving the sacraments more frequently in order to quicken or increase one�s sanctification to a higher level or greater degree - does not work. If it did work - that would be a view of the sacraments as if they were magic potions. Hence I gave the little story about the woman who was committing adultery (continuously) and imagining that receiving communion each week was erasing her adultery.

And lastly� you may object to a use of Mister Echart - but - his particular allegory of how God must destroy (through the apophatic of the dark night) our currently help view and beliefs about him (our catophatic) � in order to replace that to an even greater clarity of his glory� is accurate. It is the same as John of the Cross expresses with his cleaning of the dirt from the window (as the window is cleaned the clarity of light coming through it increases more and more). And so when I speak of spiritual progress (as far as our humanity on this earth is concerned) I speak of it as the great mystical doctors of East and West have outlined in for us.

I know - I have brought a lot into this particular post� but I feel confident that you have displayed that you have the background into the sources that I drew from. My posts are difficult to understand (I know that) and my way of writing is odd - that can�t be helped. Also (one last word of caution when reading anything I write) I often use the word �you� in an non-personal and philosophical use (and people have taken that personally in the past). If I have the time and presence of mind I sometimes go back over what I wrote and change things like �you might see in this �.� to � �one might see in this�� as I am really expressing a general tendency of human nature.

Peace be to you and to your church.
-ray
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Posts: 28 | From: Meriden, CT | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged |
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Ray Kaliss
Junior Member
Member # 2284

posted 08-04-2006 02:52 AM
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I could not sleep tonight as it is hot and muggy (I guess that is the reason)�

So at risk of yet yakking far too much� let me explain something because I am sure that someone would take exception to my explanation of the difference between salvation (to salvage something from destruction) and sanctification (the process and progress toward a deeper and more perfect union).

I am not a theologian so do not expect the precise words of theology. I rather � paint pictures. A method of �it is like this�. It is simply a way of understanding put into normal words which are more suited to us who are not theologians. The importance is not in the words but rather in the understanding of what the words are intended to point to.

I had said that the word salvation was used by Early Councils as another name by which to indicate the seven sacraments � of which the Eucharist is one (and the one from which all others flow).

And someone would then say to me�

�Ray� that can not be right � that the sacraments save from destruction � but there is not a cumulative effect or nourishing to greater strength!! Surely, the more we receive the sacraments (those which can be repeated) � the more sanctified we become and the more we grow in grace.�

Yes.. but not in the way some might think.

What we do is re-new them. The sacrifice of the mass is � re-newed. Presented again (not done again). I may explain that another day (I have explained it in the past and that post may still exist at this board). We can say for now that there is a rip � a tear � in time � where we become present to Jesus on the way to the cross (2000 years ago) and Jesus (on his way to the cross) becomes present to us individually (2000 years yet to come � where we live today).

Let me explain.

When we receive the human body and blood of Jesus Christ� it becomes a part of our own human nature. This is the natural way of any food we take.

By that natural act the Providence sent by God the Father to His Son � is sent to us also. We are now the recipient of God�s acts of love (expressed through the events of creation) � to his son and his explicitly to his son�s human nature.

On the same hand� since the son also takes upon himself our own human nature (by the act of our reception of his body and blood)� that Providence which is deservedly ours � is sent onto his son�s human nature..

Since it is the crucified and resurrected body and blood � it is not only temporal (within time) but it is also eternal (a disregard of time). And the union of our human nature (living in the year 2006) is complete with Jesus� own human nature (2000 years ago).

Hence� the Providence due to me today, right now at this moment, or to you (that Providence which is appropriate to our degree of sanctification and needed for any possiblity of further santification) is shared with the human nature of Jesus as he progresses to his crucifixion.

And that Providence which is rightly due to the human nature of Jesus Christ (because that human nature is his own son) as he progresses to his crucifixion and resurrection � also comes to me (and to you) to our own human nature here, now, this minute, in 2006.

Now that � is fact. And easily reasoned.

Our own Providence is put upon the human nature of Jesus Christ as he progresses to his crucifixion � and the Providence of love due to Jesus (as he goes to his crucifixion) is put upon us (today).

Jesu puts his own Providence upon us and take our Providence upon himself.

It is within this (the Providence � the daily bread � the events of reality which are designed by the Father and which we live each day and each moment) it is within this Providence � and our cooperation with it � that our sanctification is forged.

While the complete fullness of the Providence due to Jesus Christ (meaning �for Jesus� of course) is sent to us (individually) its effectiveness is limited (not by God) by our own free will which God will not violate. In other words � we cooperate only so-far and no farther. We need not get into the why and how of that.

Do you remember how Jacob put that furry thing on his hand so that his father thought that Jacob was Esu - and gave his blessing? That was a trick but what Jesus does is of his own free will and in the full knowledge of his father.

And so it is that Confession and the Eucharist are the re-new sacraments. They are fully effective in themselves (100%) but we are only capable (and if the person is progressing in spiritual growth our capability also grows) of cooperating to a degree or extent. Again � this is due to our free will � which God will in no way violate.

Our cooperation must be a knowing � cooperation (cooperation by very definition means we have knowledge of what we to cooperate with and we do that cooperation freely).

Now that is well enough for tonight (and probably for days). If you disagree with anything here, I ask you to cut me some slack as I am not presenting theology (that is not my duty) I am simply presenting some consideration which may yield some understanding to someone. It is often good to re-read my posts slowly and with reflection.

Peace to you and your church.
-ray
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Posts: 28 | From: Meriden, CT | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged |
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Elitoft

Junior Member
Member # 2849

posted 08-05-2006 09:47 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Ray Kaliss:
I could not sleep tonight as it is hot and muggy (I guess that is the reason)�
-ray
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It's nice to be able to sit and write when things start moving around in your mind.

There's two things that strike me with your ideas about the way of perfection being a way of progress. I do understand the attractiveness of that imagery, believe me. We all like to think that we are getting somewhere.

But the fact still stands that these are imperfect metaphors, these ladders and mountains. Did you notice that the Ladder is not actually set out in steps but in "words"? So that naming the chapters as "steps" is something of a translational stretch...eh?

BTW I like your rung and space analogy regardless of whatever else I am saying here.

At any rate there are two things unaccounted for in what you write that seem pretty glaring to me.

One is the fact, attested to by those who live the life meaning our saints and fathers, that one can make great progress in the cultivation of natural virtue and never be blessed with infused grace or infused virtue or union.

And the second thing that is missing in what you've said thus far is the fact that a novice be graced with infused virtue and union after having made little to no natural progress in either the discipline of prayer, contemplation or the acquisition of natural virtue.

These are two things that I keep looking for in your work, and hinting at but so far, no dice.

Try not to dwell on the simple fact of my saying that you've got something missing in your work. I don't want to get yelled at again for being mean to you. I just don't know how else to say it. It ain't there.

Eli
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Posts: 748 | From: New York | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |
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Ray Kaliss
Junior Member
Member # 2284

posted 08-06-2006 01:49 PM
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Eli said...

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At any rate there are two things unaccounted for in what you write that seem pretty glaring to me.

One is the fact, attested to by those who live the life meaning our saints and fathers, that one can make great progress in the cultivation of natural virtue and never be blessed with infused grace or infused virtue or union.

And the second thing that is missing in what you've said thus far is the fact that a novice be graced with infused virtue and union after having made little to no natural progress in either the discipline of prayer, contemplation or the acquisition of natural virtue.

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Posting space here is limited and my stuff is often far too long anyways. No... I did not approach the subject of the virtues. I welcome any thoughts you would like to give regarding natural and infused virtue. I have no problem with the way you put them so far except for the second (a novice can be graced with infused virtue and union) which I would amend with the fact that such infusion is given to novices by God (at times) � as fortification and encouragement � and is withdrawn. The infusion is temporary but leaves a lasting impression on the person�s memory - which impression lures the novice to dedicate himself to further growth. A taste of things to come (as it were). And the memory of it � is fortification while enduring the dark nights.

Enlightenment (to talk further) does not consititue union (that is not where union takes place) and so today many are mistaken to think they have a good solid and continuing union with God just because God had enlightened them in some way. Hense we find many false visionaries publishing books and leading groups - what began as genuine has often turned to imaginary (Bayside being a prime example).

Union does not take place in the intellect - it takes place elsewhere (that is another subject).

But of course all these details would take a book to cover and can not all be touched on in these posts and so many many things will remain unaccounted for in my posts.


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There's two things that strike me with your ideas about the way of perfection being a way of progress. I do understand the attractiveness of that imagery, believe me. We all like to think that we are getting somewhere.
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The concept of spiritual progress ... is not mine, while I have naturally used my own words in these posts. The human-side of the progression of spiritual growth is a construct in Eastern and Catholic spiritual literature. In the Catholic church it is doctrine and mostly the subject that the Doctor's Of The Church concerned themselves with. Admittedly it is not a popular subject today and mostly forgetting about as is the doctrines of Providence. These two go hand in had as inseparable� but they are badly neglected today.


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[Catechism of the Catholic Church}
2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle. Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes.

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

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(bold are mine)

This progress is generally give (in Mystical theology) as...

Purgative
Illuminative
Unitive

Three 'stages' (some times called �states� or �ways�) are defined where an action is predominate within a soul in progress. One really can not understand well the writings of St. John of the Cross without knowing this progression which he uses.

The early fathers generally called these three stages - Beginner, Proficient, Perfect.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/baker/holy_wisdom.vii.ii.viii.html

As mystical theology developed � these category names (Beginner / Proficient / Perfect) were replaced by naming the stage that the soul was at by that action in the soul which was most predominate within each stage (Purgative / Illuminative / Unitive).

The signs of these stages are mostly important for the director to know. As it is difficult for the soul himself to know what stage he may be in. Especially in the stages of Illuminative and approaching Unitive - the soul is very blind to his own state and progress often tending to think he/she has none at all and is in a worse state than ever (refer: St. John of the Cross).

Of course a great difficulty today - is that there is so little knowledge among general Christians - that false 'mystics' are numerous and have given a bad taste to the whole subject. And so the 'mystical' in the Catholic church is generally thought of along the lines of TV, movies, charismatic groups, apparitions, etc.. the whole perspective is either lost or entirely out-of-wack unless one is a monastic (where the correct views of spiritual growth of the mystical life are mostly still intact). This is especially true (most preserved and intact) in cloistered monasteries (Catholic and Orthodox).

These are my thoughts and I think that we are mostly - aligned.

Peace to you Eli.
-ray
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Posts: 28 | From: Meriden, CT | Registered: Nov 2004 | IP: Logged |

Dear Ray,

Just reviewing the things you said today, and rather than continually saying "I know" a dozen times, I'll just say that I have a fair familiarity with the various teachings concerning the way of prayer, prayer of union, hesychasm, etc. and the idea of advancement in the life of the spirit and in the way of contemplative prayer, according to progressive 'steps'. You've probably caught on to the fact that I am not negating all that you say but am looking to shine lights into the sometimes hidden corners of the body of teachings, which are, as you say, a multitude.

Today was the Feast of the Transfiguration on the Orthodox revised Gregorian calendar so that is the feast day that I celebrated this morning.

Father offered the usual sort of homily for this particular feast, but one that I think bears the repetition.

You mentioned that the novice or postulant or beginner in prayer may sometimes be gifted with some consolations or ecstasies or even be taken into unitive prayer as a means of teaching and encouraging the one who is young so that they may persevere. And then those consolations may often, but not always, come to an end.

Today Father made the point that we are not taken to the mountaintop to stay. None of us are. But he mentioned something a little bit different from many similar homilies that I've heard on this feast, in that he noted that not everyone gets to have a mountaintop experience of their own and it may not be any fault of theirs at all.

How one manages that reality in the spiritual life is also indicative of the maturity of the soul.

I think that is what I've been working on here for a day or so.

It's late here and I am still recovering from the heat wave and catching up on some sleepless nights, so I'll leave things here for the moment.

Eli

Dear Eli...

Yes. I noticed that you are very capable. It seems to be simply a matter of agreeing on terms a bit and getting a handle on each other.

I am enjoying this.

I propose we continue as the subject of virtures and prayer came up and how there fit into the schema of spiritual growth in everyday life is an important subject.

I have to go to work now... but I will post soon - unless you wish to post sooner.

Now... you mentioned the virtures (the uncreated energies) shall we explore how/why these are infused into us?

-ray

Curious �. no? How the spirit moved him to touch on the very thing we were discussing. A bit of a coincidence � yes?

You and your priest are right. Not everyone needs a mountain experience. I know some who had had such... and I know others who have never had such a thing and are very advanced spiritually. No fanfare. You would miss them in a room if you did not know what to look for. They pass through this life unknown and uncelebrated.

It seems to me that the mountain experience is like � slapping a donkey with a 2X4 to get his attention. Not everyone needs neon lights. But some of us do - in order to stop us in our tracks.

God bless those who have grown up from youth always believing and not needing anything special. I dare say that saints pass through this world everyday - and no one but God knows who they are. No phenomena surrounds them at all except for the phenomena of - not needing any at all!!

Several times in my research of mystics and phenomena� I had gone to some place and while investigating the phenomena and perhaps speaking with someone who is out-front of it � seeming like the person that it all centered around� I had noticed someone who was so far removed as to almost be invisible. Someone so quiet.. So not-apart-of-it-all� and I would just � know. And so I would walk to that person of no-notoriety and quietly say (between he/she and myself only) � �It�s you. You are the one. You are the one this is all for. May we talk?�

You see God has no need of attracting a bunch of people to himself through phenomena. No need what so ever. It is not a contest between God and Satan to see who gets the most souls. And so there will always (I say - always) be one person involved (but barely) who is in such a state of spiritual growth that God sends this special event that pertains directly (in a spiritual way) to the stage of growth that person is in and being moved higher. But - God will protect that person. That person could walk through a crowd and no one notice - like Jesus walking away from the middle of crowds who wanted to kill him. Providence - has it all under control. He or she will not be in the lime-light. And the phenomena will end when it is done embedding into that soul - what ever it was that God wanted to plant there. And who that person is will remain a secret - passing this life unknown and uncelebrated so that his/her spiritual life is not ruined by making it public.

Arch Bishop Sheen tells the true story (which took place when Communism took over China) of a village where the Catholic church had been destroyed. Torn down - in broken wood and shambles. Around the smashed altar, mixed in with the dirt on the floor - were - consecrated hosts. A communist solider noticed that someone seemed to be coming to the church at night� and so he waited. He hid himself with rifle ready. That night a young girl crept into the church - knelt where the hosts were - and placing her head to the ground she tenderly lifted a host into her mouth with her tongue.

The solider took aim and - shot her.

Now THIS � is a saint. Never declared. No testimonies collected. No miracle cures. No phenomena. The incident would never have been known except the solider converted to the Catholic church and gave her as the reason why.

This is a saint. This is what we are called to. A life of no-description. No notoriety. No public acclaim. No special knowledge. A quiet love with no special fanfare as reward. To pass through this life unknown and uncelebrated. Only � a radical dedication to the movements of conscience and the mystery of Providence. The divine hidden inside the mundane.

I am sure you are all aware of this. But thank you for your patience while I reminded myself.

-ray

This was such a beautiful post Ray that I left my paddy fingers off of it yesterday. I was dying to write and say so but I didn't want folks distracted from your words. So here I am to say so this morning.

This little reflection is so darn good. As Alice would say it gets the "Eli Toft Seal of Approval"...and more!

Eli

Great! Nice words Eli.

I wrote something about prayer... but have not yet posted it. Maybe - maybe not. Being aware my stuff is difficult to read... i sometimes just delete things.


anyways...

Pease to you and to your chuch.
-ray