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I had a couple of moments before I hit the hay.
When we speak of the authority of Scripture or the plenary verbal inspiration of the written text, a student of the word must be ready to examine extra biblical genre and test the validity of their weight. Since I believe that Scripture comprises of only 66 books, I lay before the forum questions of inaccuracies concerning the Apocryphal writings which have been given equal weight with the Protestant OT/NT. Of course, within these individual apocryphal genres, there are benefits which help the student understand the social climate of the times. However, the pure word of God (66 Books) have been tested throughout time to be the clearest revelation of divine authority without error.
As a student of theology, how should we handle the inaccuracies of the Apocryphal books? Here is summary of the discrepancies found in the pages of some the extra-biblical writings. I have not included all at this time, but will wait to see the responses. Below are some questions that I have for the audience to address.
Please examine the following:
1 Esdras�Chronology (5:56) It list Cyrus in the second year, rather it should be 2nd yr. of Darius; (5:73) Cyrus 530 B.C. died more than two years before Darius came to power (522-486 BC). Other mistakes is found in 1:38 (Cf. 2 Chronicles 36:4). There are also a descrpancy over Zerubbabel�s genealogy in 1 Chronicles 3:17-24). Who is wrong?
2 Esdras�Chronological error 3:1 regarding Ezra�s life. The Geographical mistake of Tyre and Sidon are cities west of the Medes (1:11).
Take another look at the Book of Sirach & Baruch. In Sirach, we are told that being kind to our parents atones or makes forgiveness for our sins (1:11) or giving of alms also secures forgiveness (3:30). In Baruch 1:11, Belshazzar was the son of Nabonidus.
You may want include that our Jewish audience would not consider these writings as part of their OT. This will need to be addressed. What about our Lord Jesus Christ not mentioning them in his life-time. Even the Apostles, Paul & Peter.
Only bring to the table a few selections. There are many others.
`Joel
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These quotes are from a unbelieving atheist, in his article titled Reasons Not to Believe: Another case in point is the biblical record of the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and their subsequent 40-year wandering in the Sinai wilderness. According to census figures in the book of Numbers, the Israelite population would have been between 2.5 to 3 million people, all of whom died in the wilderness for their disobedience, yet extensive archaeological work by Israeli archaeologist Eliezer Oren over a period of 10 years "failed to provide a single shred of evidence that the biblical account of the Exodus from Egypt ever happened."
A notable example would be the account of Joshua's conquest and destruction of the Canaanite city of Ai. According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, "utterly destroyed all the inhabitants," and made it a "heap forever" (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua. Joseph Callaway, a conservative Southern Baptist and professor at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, spent nine years excavating the ruins of ancient Ai and afterwards reported that what he found there contradicted the biblical record. The evidence from Ai was mainly negative. There was a great walled city there beginning about 3000 B. C., more than 1,800 years before Israel's emergence in Canaan. But this city was destroyed about 2400 B. C., after which the site was abandoned. Despite extensive excavation, no evidence of a Late Bronze Age (1500-1200 B. C.) Canaanite city was found. In short, there was no Canaanite city here for Joshua to conquer. (p. 24). This same article quoted what Callaway had earlier said when announcing the results of his nine-year excavation of Ai. Archaeology has wiped out the historical credibility of the conquest of Ai as reported in Joshua 7-8. The Joint Expedition to Ai worked nine seasons between 1964 and 1976... only to eliminate the historical underpinning of the Ai account in the Bible (p. 24).
# The second chapter of the book of Luke states that, shortly before the birth of Jesus, the emperor Augustus ordered a census to be taken throughout the Roman world. Luke states that every person had to travel to the town of his ancestors in order for the census to be taken. He points to the census as the reason that Joseph and Mary traveled from Nazareth to Bethlehem, where Jesus is said to have been born. In the book entitled Gospel Fictions, Randal Helms states that no such census was ever taken in the history of the Roman Empire. He also says that it is ridiculous to think that the practical Romans would require millions of people to travel enormous distances to towns of long-deceased ancestors merely to sign a tax form.
The second chapter of the book of Matthew asserts that, shortly after the birth of Jesus, King Herod ordered the massacre of all male children two years of age or under in Bethlehem and its vicinity. In the book of Luke, which contains the only other New Testament story of Jesus' birth, there is no mention of this order. It is also not mentioned in any of the secular histories of the time, and not even by those writers who carefully described many far less wicked deeds of Herod (such as Josephus). Pastor, The Bible is not meant to be a history book, it is a book of Faith written by the faithful about the Faith. It is not a scientific analysis of population, geography, astronomy, mathematics, biology, physics, or anything else - that's why we have science. I take my history from history books written by historians, my science from science books written by scientists, and math from math books written by mathematicians. My faith is from the Bible written by the Church.
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Pastor,
I think it safe to say that all Jews TO THIS DAY accept the DeuteroCanon, at least in practice (Palestinian Jews), if not in whole (Hellenic, Alexandrian, Ethiopian, etc Jews). This is show by the fact that ḥănūkkāh is celebrated worldwide by most (if not all) Jews. This celebration comes DIRECTLY from the Book of Maccabees.
Another FACT - Jews themselves don't accept a sola Scriptura position. If we are going to go by how Jews do things, why do you not accept Traditions and teachings outside of the Bible - the Jews do, they have their Traditions in the Talmud as well as the Oral Traditions of the prophets and Patriarchs handed down generation to generation.
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Joel - as a Catholic I believe the canonical Bible (including the Apocrapha) to be true but not necessarily exact.
These sorts of differences are repelete throughout scripture - one can point to various differences in the Synoptics and St. John in various accounts. One can also find historical inaccuracies far earlier when trying to relate events in Exodus with the known history of Ramses and the Egyptian monarchy.
One can start already with Genesis - the account of Creation given starting in Chapter 1:25-27 does not "historically" match 2:18-19. In one man is created after the animals, in the other before. We don't throw out Genesis because of some literal disagreement.
FDD
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Pastor Joel,
If we are going to eliminate books because they contain errors, then the Gospels would be subject to elimination. Matthew and Luke can't agree on where Jesus went after his birth (Egypt? Nazareth? A house where the shepherds came to adore him?), nor do they have the date right -- there was no census at the time indicated.
Do you think Jesus entered Jerusalem sitting on a colt and an ass? If not, why not? After all, that's what Matthew tells us he did (see Mt. 21:7).
It is not in these minor inaccuracies that we depend, but on faith.
Fr. Deacon Edward
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FR. Edward:
The Synoptic Gospels are similar as particularly different because of the audience to which they are writing. Matthew is writing to a Jewish audience, while Luke is clearly has the Greeks in mind. Different references to names and geography are in mind, but the same region. When Luke is writing and does not use the same target place like Matthew, he simply presenting world geographical location, while Matthew is specific.
When you consider the apocryphal writings and the serious errors, they cannot be substantiated with the other inspired text. Continuity in the Scripture is clearly seen in the 66 books of the Bible, while the Apocryphal writings simply present a mixed interpretation. For instance, giving alms to earn salvation or pleasing parents does not coincide with the rest of the 66 books. Which are wrong? Is God wrong for placing these books? God is not the author of confusion.
Just some thoughts. Hope you had a wonderful Lord's Day.
Joel
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Pastor,
It isn't at all confusing to those of us who accept that these are in fact Sacred. But to those who don't, I suppose it can be confusing when attempt to sola Scriptura-ize it, but then the atheist I quoted above found inconsistencies in the Books that you accept - how do you respond to that? Do inconsistencies in things not pertaining to the Faith make the Bible less credible in your eyes?
By the way, giving alms pertains to "loving one's neighbor as oneself" and doing good works in Christ; and pleasing parents goes hand in hand with "honoring one's father and mother" - no inconsistencies or "confusions" at all.
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Originally posted by Joel Badal:
FR. Edward:
The Synoptic Gospels are similar as particularly different because of the audience to which they are writing. Matthew is writing to a Jewish audience, while Luke is clearly has the Greeks in mind. Different references to names and geography are in mind, but the same region. When Luke is writing and does not use the same target place like Matthew, he simply presenting world geographical location, while Matthew is specific. But your thesis is that errors in the text means that they cannot be part of Scripture. You stated Since I believe that Scripture comprises of only 66 books, I lay before the forum questions of inaccuracies concerning the Apocryphal writings which have been given equal weight with the Protestant OT/NT. Of course, within these individual apocryphal genres, there are benefits which help the student understand the social climate of the times. However, the pure word of God (66 Books) have been tested throughout time to be the clearest revelation of divine authority without error. And yet I have shown you several "errors" in the Gospels. One th eone hand you dismiss these "errors" in the Gospels while asserting that the errors in the Deuterocanonical books (please, at least use the correct term on this forum) mean that they cannot be Scripture. You cannot have it both ways. Fr. Deacon Edward
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Dear Friends,
First, exegesis drives your interpretation. If there seems to be inconsistencies, it is man's opinion. Scholarship and knowledge of the Biblical language can only prove to help a studen to of the word understand genre, grammar, cultural/societal influence.
Secondly,Jesus never affirmed the deutercanoncial. Likewise the Apostle Paul and Peter did not mention these writings in their Epistles. Paul frequently used cultural expression such as mentioning a poet.
Third, since Christ is cornerstone, would he not attribute the Scripture to that of the Deutercanonical, but rather he did not. He affirmed without apology the Pentateuch, Psalms and Prophets. He said, over and over, for the Scriptures state, or haven't you read... I guess if Jesus did not mentioned them, at least we should start our argument from that perspective.
Joel
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Fr. Edward:
I do not believe the Deuterocanonical to be inspired texts or even to be called Scripture because of the numerous errors and lack of validity by our church fathers.
Thank you for replying. God's peace!
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In Protestant Circles we would see Apocryphal and Deuterocanoncial as essentially the same. I understand Apocryphal does not sit well with our Catholic brothers and sister in phraseology.
Joel
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Originally posted by Joel: In Protestant Circles we would see Apocryphal and Deuterocanoncial as essentially the same. I understand Apocryphal does not sit well with our Catholic brothers and sister in phraseology. So then why use the term Apocrypha? This is an Eastern Catholic forum afterall, no need to purposefully use a term in reference to our Sacred Scripture that is offensive. ~Isaac
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The term "apocrypha'" applied to the Deuterocanonical books does not sit well with Orthodox Christians either. This is due to the fact that the use of the aforesaid term in referring to the books included in our Septuagint, but rejected by Protestants, is inaccurate and heretical and was unheard of before the advent of the Protestant revolution in the West.
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Wisdom 9 13For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?
For the deliberations of mortals are timid, and unsure are our plans.
For the corruptible body burdens the soul and the earthen shelter weighs down the mind that has many concerns.
And scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out? 2 Corinthians 5 For we know that if our earthly dwelling, 1 a tent, should be destroyed, we have a building from God, a dwelling not made with hands, eternal in heaven.
For in this tent we groan, longing to be further clothed with our heavenly habitation
if indeed, when we have taken it off, we shall not be found naked.
For while we are in this tent we groan and are weighed down, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Wisdom 15 7 For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.
And with misspent toil he molds a meaningless god from the selfsame clay; though he himself shortly before was made from the earth And after a little, is to go whence he was taken, when the life that was lent him is demanded back.
But his concern is not that he is to die nor that his span of life is brief; Rather, he vies with goldsmiths and silversmiths and emulates molders of bronze, and takes pride in modeling counterfeits.
Ashes his heart is! more worthless than earth is his hope, and more ignoble than clay his life;
Because he knew not the one who fashioned him, and breathed into him a quickening soul, and infused a vital spirit. Romans 9 19 You will say to me then, "Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?"
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,"Why have you created me so?"
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory, namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
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From DeuteroCanonicals Books in the New Testament [ scripturecatholic.com] Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.
Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.
Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.
Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.
Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.
Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.
Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.
John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.
John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.
John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.
John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.
John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.
John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.
John 10:36 � Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.
John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.
Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.
Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.
Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.
Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.
Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.
Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.
Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.
Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.
Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.
1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.
1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.
1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.
1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.
1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.
Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.
Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.
2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.
Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.
Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.
James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.
James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.
James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.
James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.
2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.
Rev. 1:4 � the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 � Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.
Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.
Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.
Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.
Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.
Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.
Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.
Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.
Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.
Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.
Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.
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