www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Impact of the Scriptures

No antagonism sensed at all - I appreciate the perspective.

Dear Friends,

Actually, as I understand it, classical Protestantism never said that we don't need guides or interpretive frameworks to understand the Bible.

Protestantism simply rejects Tradition as a necessary component of revealed Truth which, for Protestantism is contained solely in the Scriptures.

In the sayings of the Desert Fathers as translated by St John Cassian, one of these says that just as the eye can see objects clearly when it is healthy and has sufficient light, so too will our minds interpret Scripture as God intended (and without interpretive frameworks) once we have purified ourselves of sin and evil.

Alex

Alex,
that's not entirely true.I remember a few times being involved in discussions about this topic in seminary classes. when the prof mentioned Rome's reliance on Tradition as well as Scripture, I replied. I replied using all my " well learned politesse" (to use a line from Mick Jagger's Sympathy for the Devil), and approached the question in the delicate situation. I asked the Baptist prof if there was any truth in the asumption that Baptists had a traditional hermeneutic in the interpretation of Scripture. the prof answered in the affirmative, that it was true to an extent. I let the answer stand. I made my point.
The idea of "tradition" also manifests itself in a number of post Reformation "creeds", such as the Westminster Confession, the New Hampshire statement, the Heidelburg, etc. etc.. As it was required fo all students in the Baptist seminary to take a course in Baptist History (Berean, are you reading this?), the text mentioned a number of statements of faith that figure importantly in Baptist history. It should also be pointed out that Baptists (real ones, not the Liberals) subscribe to the Ecumenical Councils that defined the Nature and Person of our Lord Jesus Christ, and Baptists are in agreement with Rome, Constantinople, and (traditionally at least)Canterbury on these issues.
If you are asking for ecclesiatical authority, I will not insult your intelligence, or that of any other reader by saying no. Baptists follow a congregational polity. they may have denominations, confernces, or in the case of Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, a Southwide Baptist Fellowship.this is where Independent Baptist churches have a mutual understanding of faith and polity, any church having problems with the understanding are free to leave. But it suffices to say, there are no authoritative Councils, Popes,Patriarchs, or an Archbishop of Canterbury for Baptists ( Pastor Roger may, as I have, wonder if there are Baptist leaders who fancy themselves such, but that's an in house joke).
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear John,

Well, I don't know what it is that isn't entirely true in what I said!

Alex

Oh, I see it now. your use of double negatives in the opening of your post threw me off. anywhatever, my post may be of benefit to someone yet.
Much Love,
Jonn

Pretty good assesment - in fact another "inside joke" is about who is or is not the current "Baptist pope" because of his own self-assumed authority.

Dear Berean,

It is refreshing to have a chance to discuss "sola Scriptura" with a proponant who isn't "forcing it down our throats."

I think the idea of the Scriptures being "tempered by the Church" isn't quite the way I would put it.

Instead I might say that the Scriptures theselves bear out the idea that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of truth" and that our personal interpretation of Scripture is informed by the Tradition and the authority that the Lord has given to the Church.

Tradition isn't something men made up, but rather the faith as it was believed by the apostles and the early Church Fathers, the way the faith was lived and believed even before the canon of Scripture was formalized. The truth as expressed both by word and by letter....we cannot contradict Scripture by our tradition...rather we see Tradition and Scripture as two closely connected ways of hearing the Lord.

As a convert to Catholicism, I find it interesting how many references there are in the Scripture to Church auhority.

Not that we cannot also read and understand Scripture ourselves, but that we also listen to the Tradition (not of men) but of the Lord's body the Church. This gift of Tradition enables us to have a unity of understanding difficult to achieve by those who examine the Word individually without consensus or authority to declare a firm position as "binding"...

And then, of course, with our understanding of the Biblical role of Peter and his successors,as well as the rest of the apostles and those on whom they laid their hands... we understand that the same Spirit who inspired them to write the Scriptures still assists their successors as they "rightly divide the Word of truth"

As a daily Scripture reader...I love to listen for the Lord as I read His Word... We Catholics share that love of Scripture with you who as a "Berean" are (I presume) searching the Scriptures to see whether the things we say are so....

I respect your open honesty, and am pleased to openly discuss "these things"

All of us, including those who hold to sola scriptura have some traditional influence. My "take" on scriptures is alwasy somewhat influnced by the authors I read and commentaries I study.

Dear Pastor Roger,

I remember when the movied the "Last Temptation of Christ" came out, a number of conservative Protestant leaders attacked it openly and, more often than not, quoted from the Ecumenical Councils of the first century and the Fathers to make explicit the Church's faith in the Divinity of Christ.

Alex

Alex,
an interesting development of recent times, I'm sure you are aware of: the movement of conservative Protestant theologians to the study of the Fathers for authority and historical continuity, most notably, here in the US of A. reality can be a bummer when it is realized that Christianity did not begin with Americans. stay tuned, greater things are yet to happen.
Much Love,
Jonn

GOD IS ON HIS THRONE AND IN CONTROL!

I, for one, never totally discount the value of the early church fathers. There are GREAT resources there.

Well,

I admit to not reading Scripture daily - but I do my best to go to Daily Mass, since there is a church that is a five minute walk form my office. This grants me the grace to listen to Scripture daily, pray the Responsorial Psalm daily, and for daily prayer. I have not heard the term prima scriptura, but now I can realize it. It is interesting to listen to different homilies on the same Gospel passage, when I put on EWTN for the daily Mass.

Just on a personal note - when I saw The Passion last year, one of the first tings I did when I got home was to open my Bible to the Gospel accounts of the Passion. The movie made the Gospel come alive for me.

As for dropping the "to be" - this is very common in the Pittsburgh area. I do it myself. My parents always did it. Must be because of the Scots-Irish and later Irish immigration here in the 19th century.
www.pittsburghese.com [pittsburghese.com]

Amen!

In my earlier post, I was responding to the fact that you said you are "sola scriptura" ... I think perhaps I misunderstood your point to some degree... I guess I presumed you looked to the Bible alone for your understanding of Christianity, thereby missing much of its rich history and teaching as presented by the Church Fathers, etc.

I think you meant that you believe that the Scripture is the final word on any subject, rather than the only one....Of course that becomes clearer when I think of your chosen name "Berean"

As we discuss the Church Fathers, it should be interesting to discuss points of agreement among all of us Christians who spring from the same source....and who seek for true Unity in Christ

It was to me.

I find it interesting.

In my experience I have met a few Baptists that I thought very gentle people with great sincerity. And I think this true of Baptists as a whole.

On the other hand I have met a few who - were greatly repressed - and that repression causes - problems.

I knew very well, a woman who had been the daughter of a Baptist minister. She had physiological problems. And was abusive to her own daughter. Come to find out that her father had not let her sleep with her hands under the covers when she was a child. This - and other signs - were clear to me that there was a repression there. A problem with sex in the minister (not the daughter). Great enough to cause imbalance. Also - I find it somewhat true that many Baptist - who are not allowed alcohol - in later life have a struggle with alcohol - as opposed to families (let us give ethnic example) like say and Italian family where the kind are brought up with a drink of wine at dinner etc�

When repressed - what is repressed - does not get to find a healthy expression - and so there can develop almost an obsession.

I do not bring this up to degrade the Baptists. As Catholics and Eastern - we are all familiar with the occasional family problems.

I would suspect that these repression problems are limited to only a few groups of Baptists. I do not know the �arrangement� of the church. That is - what groups there are in it and about it.

-ray