www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Ezekiel 47: 1-9, 12 Annotations

I am at my wits end with these verses. This was a OT lectionary reading(RC)yesterday and I just happened to use my Douay Bible, footnotes for this verse section read :"Waters:these waters are not to be understood literally(for there were none such that flowed from the temple), but mystically, out of the baptism of Christ, and of His doctrine and His grace. The trees that grow on the banks are Christian virtues; the fishes are Christians, who live in and by these holy waters; the fishermen are the apostles and apostolic preachers; the fenny places, where there is no health, are those outside the Church and therefore separated from these waters of life.

This is opposite modern notations & which is correct ? RayK, JThur where are you guys ?

james

I�m not sure that it is opposite anything. The footnote on Ez 47:1-12 in the NAB states: �The wonderful and superabundant stream flowing from the temple, restoring to fertility traditionally arid ground, is symbolic of the return of the conditions of primeval paradise; (cf Genesis 2:10-14). Water signifies great blessings, just as dryness signifies a curse; (cf Ezekiel 26:5, 14).

The Jerome Biblical Commentary indicates that this is the same symbolism found in other books (Am 9:14; Zech 14:8; Ps 36:8-9; Rev 22:1). It suggests that the water flowing is �[p]robably an allusion to the legend in which the stream of water coming out of Eden (Gn 2:10-14) that had been stopped up by Adam�s sin reappeared again during the Exodus in the desert; the water flowed from the rock in 12 streams and finally reappeared in eschatological Jerusalem as one stream.�

GENESIS 2

8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 10 A river watering the garden FLOWED FROM EDEN [emphasis mine]; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

EZEKIEL 47

1 The man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water coming out from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He then brought me out through the north gate and led me around the outside to the outer gate facing east, and the water was flowing from the south side. 3 As the man went eastward with a measuring line in his hand, he measured off a thousand cubits and then led me through water that was ankle-deep. 4 He measured off another thousand cubits and led me through water that was knee-deep. He measured off another thousand and led me through water that was up to the waist. 5 He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in-a river that no one could cross. 6 He asked me, "Son of man, do you see this?" Then he led me back to the bank of the river. 7 When I arrived there, I saw a great number of trees on each side of the river.

�

12 Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing."

JOHN 22

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL [emphasis mine], flowing from THE THRONE OF GOD AND OF THE LAMB [emphasis mine] 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

* * * * * * *

A little comparison of the three visions will hopefully help. There is a tradition here (�tradition� in the biblical sense of passing down a story �)

Genesis 2 // Ezekiel 47 // John 22

Location of vision: Garden in the east // the entrance of the temple // the river of life

Water flowed from: Eden (Paradise?) // the Temple // the Throne of God and the Lamb

What water: River // Water // River of the Water of Life

Who showed the vision: the LORD // the man // the angel

Type of trees: All kinds of trees // fruit trees of every kind // Tree of Life

Number of crops: the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge // every month // twelve crops

Use of crops: pleasing to eye and good for you // for food and healing // for healing

Can the river of life mean eternal life, which is a free gift - like water? The source of that gift is, of course, God. GOD planted the garden; GOD was worshipped at the Temple (represented the presence of God); and GOD/Lamb is the source of the river ...

NOTE: In some Byzantine temples, the floor mosaic is one of a river �

TRADITION!!!

Well thank you both for the input, it seems that the Douay commentary is quite unique. My Jerusalem Bible & Oxford Study Bible commentaries are inline with your posts.

I still would like to get the back ground on Douay comments.

And JThur, your post is unique & informative!

james

I just noticed your post and I see JThur has given some answer. I will read his remarks before offering any of my own, knowing that JTur is very capable.

-ray

Dear Jakub:

Both the Administrator and JThur have given masterful interpretations. Any comments I might make would be minor, supporting, and redundant to what they have already said. If you read my comments below, then when you are done, shake them off, and go back and read the Administrator and Jthur again and let them stick in your mind.

As for the specific Douay quote -
You should note the similarity with what the Administrator posted.
Waters (life giving) flowing out of where? (The Temple, Jesus, Eden)�
doing what? Restoring.
Restoring to where? Restoring us to Eden.

The proper interpretation of Eden is more like a �condition or state� of All-Providence. Remember - while in the garden all was provided by God for Adam. In fact he was �not to till the ground� but simply to �tend� what God was providing. God planted, and watered, and all Adam had to do was pick the fruit and eat.

You can think of this as a spiritual union between God and ourselves. Where, because the wills are one - all else follows.

We can understand the symbols used, allegorically, but there is a limit to that word �allegory� which the word �mystical� pushes beyond.

Through out scriptures, the resurrection, has a primary meaning of - restoration. To be - restored. Origen used the word �apostasies� (I may have spelled that wrong). In fact the original name of John�s book which we call �Revelations� was originally �John�s Book of Apostasies� to be understood as �the restoration of all things�. Later it began to be called the Apocalypse because it fit the form of apocalyptic literature and still later it began to be called �Revelations� .

The theme of restoration is central to scriptures. It is a spiritual restoration (vital life). It is to be restored to All-Providence from self-providence. To be restored to the will of God instead of our own will�. But I should not describe our �own will� here anymore than to say it is our own desire to provide for ourselves in the way of psychological and physical security and gain. Note that Cain �tilled� the ground (manipulated it) while Able only tended the sheep while Providence (the natural cycle of the sheep) did the work. Cain presented to God the work of Cain�s hands and Abel presented back to God the work of God�s hands. Note too that Adam (while in the garden) was NOT to till the ground but only to - tend it. Note too that while in contemplation we are to refrain from the grinding of thoughts (tilling the ground) and simply rest in the presence of God.

Shall we choose the All-Providence of God - or shall we continue with our own self-providing plans and efforts? One excludes the other. If one is choosing self-providence it is automatic that one is no longer in All-Providence.
Note also that the messiah was expected to �restore Israel to its former glory� and when Jesus did that he did it not in a geopolitical or literal way - but a resurrection and restoration of our spirit. His kingdom is not of this world (time and space and history) but is spiritual (a higher reality of mind and heart). He who could resurrect the body can surely resurrect the spirit.

Both the Administrator and Jthur recognize that the waters are flowing out of the Temple and feeding Eden. While each may have some literal reality - the prime reality (and what we need to pay attention to) is the spiritual reality. Which is: to be restored to Eden (All-providence) is the same thing as union with Christ (in whom All-Providence is boss!). The identification of Jesus with All-Providence (Eden) is not just allegorical - but in the mind of scripture - is indeed more real than the material world of our senses. In fact, it is the cause - of the material world. (�And no-thing came to-be except it came to-be through him.� John). To say �A reviver flowed from eden� is also to say �water flowed from the side of Christ�. Each, although perhaps having a literal reality - point to and are caused by the one same spiritual reality.

In the Hebrew understanding of the river mentioned in Genesis (it is a cosmogony or prophetic book first - with some association with history only secondarily) which ever commentator gave it as a river associated with - virtues - was obviously familiar with the Hebrew names of the rivers as they branched off because each name (in the Hebrew) is the name of a - virtue. Here (in Eden) they are what theology and philosophy call �natural virtues� in as much as they are natural to us, a gift, and no work is done on our part to posses them (as compared to the virtues that we must work for and make a habit of while in our fallen state of dis-union with Providence). In our current condition we humans are a mix of natural virtues and where these are lacking we must work to fill them to habit. Patience, prudence, firmness of will, courage, etc..

While later Christianity divided the major virtues into seven (meaning that all virtues being more than seven - can be summed up and contained in sever categories) and seven is often the number of �the complete thing� - the earlier Moses in Genesis made the summation into four (�that which goes out to all creation�).

In Genesis (which all of what Jthur talks about takes reference from) the image is one massive river which has it origin in All-Providence and then divides into four and waters (grows, brings to-be, causes, gives vital life) to all creation. We can, for the sake of concepts, call that main river �The River of Virtues�. It is Eden. It is Christ. It is God. It is All-Providence.

The River then divides into four �

Pishon (prudence and moral judgment)
Gihon (sobriety and self-restraint)
Hiddekel (fortitude and courage)
Euphrates (justice and righteousness)

(the names of the rivers above are derived from the Hebrew words themselves and expositions of St. Peter of Damaskos compared with Philo of Alexandria - on the subject).

The concept is that the original state of union which we had with God (considered both as a total humanity and as each individual) was one where we experienced the All-providing of God. It is an experience which is natural to us (built into us). A condition of whole-ness, reality, and natural virtue. Once disrupted by self-providence we become divided from reality (tossed our of the garden) and prefer the �world� of the senses which we share with the animals.

Our restoration, if culminated in this life (before physical death) is called �Spiritual union� or �Mystical Union� and it is actually a restoration of ourselves to - reality. I do not know how to emphasis that enough. While these things may appear to us to be merely allegorical, perhaps poetic or romantic (one we get beyond a literal and sense based) - to Jesus and the theology of the Church - what these images point to - is reality itself. Mystical Union or our culmination or metanoia into a saint - is to come face to face with a pure and un-muddied - experience of reality itself.

If one considers that what the Church says is true - then the fact of Providence - is what is real compared to all our theories of physics and science which portray the world as mechanical and not guided by God at every moment. The concept that God created all things in a big band and then set the world running like gears of a clock (and this is what �Providence� is) - is near Christian but not Christian. The doctrine of Providence has it that every moment is fresh from the mind of God and what comes to be in the moment is contingent upon our individual need as God forms us.

So the work of sanctification, rather than a retreat from reality onto some cloud where we think ourselves to be holy - is actually a plunge ! into reality (not an easy nor comfortable thing).

Rather than an �out-scape� Genesis and anywhere these images appear in scriptures - we should be looking inside - an �in-scape�.

What blows my mind - is that although these things are primarily an �in-scape� - they ARE the cause of the external. And that blows my mind.

I hope I have not confused you.

My appologies JThur - my word processor refused to keep the T in caps and I am way to tired to proof my bableing.

-ray

Ray,

It's good and as "deep" like J Thur's, in fact maybe we need to get you guys to write a Bible commentary and publish it.

james

Joe,

John 22?!? I'm missing that chapter. :p Certainly you must mean Revelation (Apocalypse in the Douay-Rheims) 22.

OK, OK. Some people are just sooooo picky. It is the Apocalypse of John, not (the Gospel of) John. It was a speed error.

At least I got your namesake right!

Joe

Isnt Sacred Scripture awesome. Look at the differnt motifs occurring in the Bible.
We now have that original state restored. Genesis-Ezechial-Reveltaion.

The other day when I was meditate on the text of that day, independant of the footnote of the Douay Bible I caught the same symbolism.

The two trains of thought are commpletely in harmony, and complimentary to one another.

Stephanos I

I should like to her from JThur on the subject of contemplation.

JThur?? (open a new thread? contemplation in scriptures??) I am not kidding.

- - - - - - - -

On a further interesting sub-note to Ezekiel� (I say sub-note because I again remark that Jthur has given the meat)� some reality to Ezekeil would be good. Always look to nail everything down to its humanity - and let the divine take care of itself.

The book of Ezekiel has as its kernel this real vision, while books such as Tobit and Job use the �prophetic language� of symbols there are written within some community in order to impart lessons about spiritual growth. Neither Tobit nor Job should be seen as �historical� and the spiritual images used are intentional used by the writer (as such they are a bit shallow and contrived for a purpose as compared to the pure prophetic books). The book of Ezekiel, displays that his visions were indeed - real visions.

Most people imagine that prophecy was a gift given by God to whomever he selected - as if just one day God appears and appoints someone to be a prophet and receive messages. However this is not the case. Again I state the prophecy is to understand the deep things of God - signified by Ezekiel �eating the scroll� or �digesting scriptures�. On its most natural and common level it was to expound scriptures and explain events of scriptures as in the way done in some of the commentaries of the Dead Sea Scrolls. In that sense, when a priest speaks the reading of the Mass or Liturgy - and after the gospels he give his sermon where he explains the spiritual meaning of the readings and how this applies to us here and now - he is fulfilling the role of a prophet.

For the Jewish prophets, in most cases, they were �trained� (not a good word here) in schools for the prophets. We see that David fell into dancing at the head of a school of prophets one day. Solomon was trained by such a school of prophets and when we hear that Solomon was �good at riddles� we should not thing of mind twisting riddles of entertainments but rather of such questions as �What is - soul? What is the meaning of - this portion of scriptures?� and the observations of nature� sciences etc.. etc..

These schools, were run by someone recognized to be holy. They were communities similar to Quram (but perhaps not as large). Although it is probably that the school of Isaiah was - rather large and continued long after the death of the original Isaiah had died (his office being passed on by succession). Anytime we think of the prophets of the old testament we should think of them in context of their schools (Excepting perhaps Jeremiah who was often alone and enduring long Dark Nights per St. John of the Cross.)

The schools or communities - taught spiritual discipline and learning. One applied for admission and was accepted as a novitiate (not living yet in community) for a span of time (a year or more). Classes (if we can call them that) consisted of lectures by the resident spiritual masters upon scriptures and the spiritual life. All property was held in community (very little personal property was allowed). Study of scriptures, study of what we would call philosophy, study in reading and writing, and a dedication to the spiritual rules of the community. Very monastic. Some, only allowed males to be members - some took in whole families while the son remained the member of the prophetic community and his family a member because of the son.

The goal of the spiritual life was not to obtain unusual �gifts�. The goal was the restoration of human nature. What we would call a �wholeness�. A cultivation of the virtues. Some discipline balanced with learning.

An off-shoot of this kind of spiritual life is, that as the person becomes more spiritual (a restoration to the natural whole state which God designed us for) one becomes more aware of spiritual things - including ones own spirit. One becomes more integrated as a person. More intuitive also.

Outstanding visions (if they happen) where the person is swept up and completely absorbed in the experience - are tending more towards those in the early stages. The �mechanics� of the event are similar to a hallucination (hear me out before you tsk tsk that) in as much as the event takes place within the imagination of the recipient and through that may strongly effect his senses. The �vision� does not take place �out there� but is rather infused into the recipient by taking place within his imagination. For example: if several people are supposedly experiencing the same apparition - if their physical eyes are all exactly focused upon the exact same physical location - it is doubtful that a genuine apparition is taking place. Under more genuine situations - all will be describing the same event but their physical eyes (while perhaps being in the same general direction) will most likely not be centered on the exact same physical location. The apparition (as it were) takes place upon the sense faculties of the recipient from the inside - rather than the outside. Although things and events on the outside will have some correspondence to the events of the vision.

While young in the spiritual life, God uses a 2X4 board to get our complete attention for a vision. As the person progresses in the spiritual life these visions (if they happen) are experience more like dreams. This is a general rule of thumb and there are exceptions which I will not discuss for lack of space. �Your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams.�

Spiritual dreams and visions are actually quite rare in the real spiritual life - and the frequency or vividness is in no way a measure of the persons spiritual life or progress and their true interpretation may or may not be given at the same time. In most cases - the true spiritual interpretation of the event is not fully given to the intellect of the recipient - and may not be given for several years (even as long as 15 or 20 years!). A sure way to ruin any good of the experience is to quickly give it a literal interpretation and set ones self up as a messenger from God. At which time the recipient�s own imagination comes into place and the visions or messages seem to continue - when really the spiritual faculties (subconscious mind) of the recipient are interfering and now causing and forming the experience. A genuine event - turned corrupt. (�Woe to those prophets who are fools and follow their own spirit and have no vision form me.� paraphrased from Ezek 13:16)

Ezekiel�s visions are obviously genuine (of course they are Ray - they are in the bible!) because they display �marks� which a knowledgeable spiritual director would recognize. The depth of the images and their smooth correlation - are beyond what the human mind alone, can construct. As I say, the books of Job and Tobit (as filled with prophetic imagery as they are) were written by spiritual masters in order to impart lessons of the spiritual life. As such they may contain events and portions which are drawn form someone�s visions of experiences - but over all the imagery is a construct for the purposes of the writer. Ezekiel�s visions have that �depth� which seems inexhaustible - and the overall structure corresponds to a signature structure which I prefer not to talk about. They are �signed� by God in a way of a signature - a seal (melted wax taking the shape of the seal).

I can not tell if Ezekials visions were given while in ecstasy (totally oblivious to external). I tend to think not as it seems to me they indicate visions given not to the spiritually young but to someone well into spiritual progress - but not yet approaching spiritual union. There is an interaction between Ezekiel and the giver of the vision. This interaction is clearing with someone �other� than Ezekiel�s own imagination. If this were a vision given in Ezekiel�s younger days there would be much less interaction and more of Ezekiel just being overwhelmed and awed by the spectacle. In fact Ezekeil�s faculties would have been suspended so that his own faculties would not interfere - yet we see that Ezekiel does interact - and so we can tell that God was not concerned that Ezekiel�s faculties would be interfering. If this were a vision of old age (taking place to Ezekiel when he was well advanced) it is first of all doubtful that Ezekiel would even mention it at all. It would have been less spectacular and Ezekiel would have just told us rather the meaning than the vision. .. Appealing to our reason.

My own guess, is that this experience that Ezekiel relates - was rather related by Ezekiel himself to his spiritual director or close friends in his community (his close friends in the priesthood) - who then saw in it something that he felt would be good for others to know about. What better parable to teach by than one God himself used to teach by? Keep in mind that at the time this took place they were in exile in Babylon and the temple was - not. While it is probably that Ezekiel was, indeed, historically, one man who was a priest - the body of his work (his book) should probably be considered more the product of his �school� and the community that gathered about this spiritual leader. Much of what Ezekiel talks about (outside of his visions) is an invective of the conduct of the Temple priesthood prior to the invasion of Babylon. Conduct of the Temple priesthood which, in Ezekiel�s mind, was a contributing factor that caused God to �wipe the slate clean� by the destruction of the Temple.

Ezekiel insists that the work of the new covenant to come - cannot be the work of man (methods of behavioral modification man applies to himself such as the correct performance of Temple rituals, etc.. ) but must be the work of God (cooperation with Providence and good conscience) which these rituals are an image of.

That is enough for me. I actually have to do some work now of which I am behind. Darn you all! (kidding) for presenting a subject which I love.

-ray

My brother Joe,

Speaking of namesakes...just the other day I revisted your genealogy thread. Given your ancestry, I wonder if your forebears have proven their fidelity to Rome by not naming any of the Thur males, Lou(is) or Lew(is)?

I can't remember what I wrote regarding my ancestry. I think the Charlemegne connection went belly-up due to its reliance on an infamous genealogist who was so obliging to find royalty for high paying customers. With that piece of info, I have been responsible for taking down a few genealogy websites claiming the same thing ...

I have a way of making friends.

The Luther connection is still good though. That connection has stronger support on the other side of the Atlantic with German genealogists who do nothing but study the descendents of Martin Luther, Der Reformer. So many Luthers in Cambria County, PA. I learned that some were actually RE-baptized by the Catholic Church.

Since writing about my ancestry (can't remember when), I have found more information. I guess I would have to thank the Council of Trent for making parish registers mandatory. The documentation has been absolutely wonderful.

My ancestors included the Elder family who donated land for Mount Saint Marys seminary in Emmitsburg and Captain Michael McGuire who donated land for a church (now St. Michael's basilica) in Loretto, PA. And, of course, Der Reformer ...

I tried getting a job last year with a Lutheran insurance company. They asked me if I was Lutheran (a requirement). I told them "No," but asked if being a descendent of Martin Luther was OK. They said "No." Oh, well.

Joe