www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Sovereignty of God in the Apocryphal Writings

Originally posted by Joel,

�I think most of your comments have been taken from other writers.�

Not at all, but if so, being a graduate student, I am woefully in the rut of giving proper attribution. If you have an instance where I have claimed thoughts of others as my own, then please, by all means � provide an example - rather than making an unfounded accusation.

�At least I have presented the Scriptures in my answers...the authoriative word of God. I haven't seen you attempt to show Scripture as sola scriptura.�

Okay... First off � why would I �attempt to show Scripture as sola scriptura� � I am not a Protestant, and think sola scriptura is so much nonsense. Your statement has left me a bit befuddled, so if perhaps you meant something else, please enlighten me.


~Isaac

Mark,

Interesting quote. How would the Catholic Church interpret this text? Protestant would for sure view from a different lense. Where is the balance?

St Augustine: On the Septuagint as a Divine Translation
For while there were other interpreters who translated these sacred oracles out of the Hebrew tongue into Greek, as Aquila, Symmathus, and Theodotion, and also that translation which, as the name of the author is unknown, is quoted as the fifth edition, yet the Church has received this Septuagint translation just as if it were the only one; and it has been used by the Greek Christian people, most of whom are not aware that there is any other. From this translation there has also been made a translation in the Latin tongue, which the Latin churches use. Our times, however, have enjoyed the advantage of the presbyter Jerome, a man most learned, and skilled in all three languages, who translated these same Scriptures into the Latin speech, not from the Greek, but from the Hebrew. But although the Jews acknowledge this very learned labor of his to be faithful, while they contend that the Septuagint translators have erred in many places, still the churches of Christ judge that no one should be preferred to the authority of so many men, chosen for this very great work by Eleazar, who was then high priest; for even if there had not appeared in them one spirit, without doubt divine, and the seventy learned men had, after the manner of men, compared together the words of their translation, that what pleased them all might stand, no single translator ought to be preferred to them; but since so great a sign of divinity has appeared in them, certainly, if any other translator, of their Scriptures from the Hebrew into any other tongue is faithful, in that case he agrees with these seventy translators, and if he is not found to agree with them, then we ought to believe that the prophetic gift is with them. For the same Spirit who was in the prophets when they spoke these things was also in the seventy men when they translated them, so that assuredly they could also say something else, just as if the prophet himself had said both, because it would be the same Spirit who said both; and could say the same thing differently, so that, although the words were not the same, yet the same meaning should shine forth to those of good understanding; and could omit or add something, so that even by this it might be shown that there was in that work not human bondage, which the translator owed to the words, but rather divine power, which filled and ruled the mind of the translator. Some, however, have thought that the Greek copies of the Septuagint version should be emended from the Hebrew copies; yet they did not dare to take away what the Hebrew lacked and the Septuagint had, but only added what was found in the Hebrew copies and was lacking in the Septuagint, and noted them by placing at the beginning of the verses certain marks in the form of stars which they call asterisks. And those things which the Hebrew copies have not, but the Septuagint have, they have in like manner marked at the beginning of the verses by horizontal spit-shaped marks like those by which we denote ounces; and many copies having these marks are circulated even in Latin. But we cannot, without inspecting both kinds of copies, find out those things which are neither omitted nor added, but expressed differently, whether they yield another meaning not in itself unsuitable, or can be shown to explain the same meaning in another way. If, then, as it behoves us, we behold nothing else in these Scriptures than what the Spirit of God has spoken through men, if anything is in the Hebrew copies and is not in the version of the Seventy, the Spirit of God did not choose to say it through them, but only through the prophets. But whatever is in the Septuagint and not in the Hebrew copies, the same Spirit chose rather to say through the latter, thus showing that both were prophets. For in that manner He spoke as He chose, some things through Isaiah, some through Jeremiah, some through several prophets, or else the same thing through this prophet and through that. Further, whatever is found in both editions, that one and the same Spirit willed to say through both, but so as that the former preceded in prophesying, and the latter followed: in prophetically interpreting them; because, as the one Spirit of peace was in the former when they spoke true and concordant words, so the selfsame one Spirit hath appeared in the latter, when, without mutual conference they yet interpreted all things as if with one mouth.

--St. Augustine, City of God, Book 18, Chapter 43

Put you borrowed stuff in quotes...

(I have to inject an ! or you would not see the tags)..

[!quote] text here [!/quote]

and that creates this...

and URL links - just copy them in...

https://www.byzcath.org

You will get the hang of it.

Just be aware that on occasion there has been evangelicals come here just to argue and prove all Catholics wrong. And that is usually their first mistake because this board has Orthodox and Byzantines - and a few Catholics. We may argue among ourselves over some differences between us - but we all come from the same root and the differences we think we have came much later.

So we can be a bit 'on guard'.

-ray

Isaac,

Sounds like Scripture has taken a back seat in your spiritual growth. Yet, the Apostle Paul says that the Scriptures are breathed out by God and is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17)for bringing the necessary spiritual maturity in our lives. Your grad student, return back to God's word for your source of strength.

Now back to the Sovereignty of God in the Deuterocanonical writings. Who would like to address this interesting study? There are some good journal articles which I have been studying.

Originally posted by Joel:
Joel,

Why would you assume that �Scripture has taken a back seat� in my �spiritual growth�? Valuing scripture has nothing to do with the erroneous Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

As an aside - I already have a Spiritual Father of the True Faith, so please � keep your pastoral admonitions directed at me to yourself. Thanks.


~Isaac

Mark of Ephesus:

Augustine had his own quirkiness in regards to depravity of man and other items of Christian Theology. Not sure what you are attempting to show in the long quote. Help us out

Joel,

I am an Orthodox Christian and can state how the Orthodox Church views that which is expressed in the quote I provided. Orthodox Christian hold that we must remain faithful to the interpretation of Scripture that we have received from the Tradition of the Church. This is because Orthdoxy views both Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition as inspired by God. The same Holy Spirit who inspired Moses, the Prophets together with the NT writers guided the Church in determining the bounds of the canon. The Church existed before the defined canon of the OT and before the completion of the NT. We do not get the Church from the Bible but rather have received the Bible from the Church.

So by saying that you have a Spiritual Father of the True faith you are excluding the Protestants?

I am just encouraging you to interact with the Scriptures, the pillar and ground of truth.

Pastor Joel,

Let's refrain from addressing someone's spiritual life in this forum -- that amounts to an ad hominem which is certainly unacceptable.

However, we can address the position of Scripture for people who post here. Perhaps the most common posture here would be that Scripture is written Tradition -- but that Tradition is bigger than just Scripture. Does not St. Paul tell us to "stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter." (NRSV 2 Thess 2:15). For us Tradition certainly includes Scripture, but to claim that Scripture is sufficient is logically untenable. Scripture does not contain within itself a list of the books that form Scripture -- that list depends on the authority of someone or some organization (for us, that is the Church). Thus, the entire concept of sola Scriptura fails on this point, but also fails because of Paul's reference to "word of mouth" teaching.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Fr. Deacon:

Just trying to preach a sermon.

But word of mouth would be the proclamation of the scripture. It is interesting that you mention this scripture. Oral tradition must have created the passing of scripture to one audience to another.

Fr. Deacon:

Look like the thread is turning south. What do you think? The topic is not be addressed. I have tried to bring it back to the earlier statement, but with no success.

Joel

Pastor Joel,

The Scriptures are not he pillar and ground of truth. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.

Now could you please stop beating around the bush and put some Scripture from Esdras, as you promised, that in some way addresses the Sovereignty of God?

I would suggest to all the other posters as well to keep to the subject. We know that there are all sorts of side trails we could follow. The issue of this thread as Pastor Joel has started is the Sovereignty of God in the Deuterocanonicals.

Now, Pastor Joel, I would like to know what you think of the Sovereignty of God is Esdras. Why did you bring up the subject if you don't have anything to write about it? What does the author of Esdras write about the Sovereignty of God? Do you believe it to be adequate or inadequate? Do you believe it agrees or disagrees with the rest of Scripture? In short, just what is your point?

CDL