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Originally posted by Joel Badal: Fr. Deacon:
Look like the thread is turning south. What do you think? The topic is not be addressed. I have tried to bring it back to the earlier statement, but with no success.
Joel You haven't even addressed the topic yet. What is it about the Sovereignty of God in Esdras that you wish to discuss? Spit it out man. CDL
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Pastor Joel,
First, I agree that Scripture was probably passed on orally at first, and witten down later on. But Paul seems to go beyond that meaning in his letter. Why would he be concerned only in Scripture? We have to remember that Paul established communities and only later wrote letters to them when things were going wrong. His letters are hardly a form of systematic theology but are, rather, snapshots of conditions in various churches.
In fact, even the Gospels are only snapshots of events in the life of Jesus that the Evangelists thought worthy of including. St. John even tells us that there was much that was not recorded. And, yet, Scripture is "useful" for teaching -- but it is not self-sufficient (or, at least, there is no such claim in Scripture).
Fr. Deacon Edward
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I meant that. CDL I stand corrected...Typing fast.
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CDL,
There seems to be great tension in the Deutercanonical in regards the sovereignty issue at hand. God is the one controlling nature etc. He gives food and well-being of life. Then you compare the sovereignty issue with any of the OT or NT writings. Just trying to make some observations.
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Originally posted by Joel Badal: Fr. Deacon:
Look like the thread is turning south. What do you think? The topic is not be addressed. I have tried to bring it back to the earlier statement, but with no success.
Joel I think that it might be best if you put forth your thesis on the topic of the "Severeignty of God" so that we can discuss it. So far the only post that comes close is a suggestion that we look at a couple of passages from Macabees and one from Tobit. What it is, specifically, that you want to address? Are you suggesting that the deuterocanonical books emphasize God's position or that they denigrate it? What, exactly, is it that you are positing? Fr. Deacon Edward
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Ok,
Here's I Esdras 1. This chapter addresses God's sovereignty. What is it about this chapter that is agreeable or disagreeable to you regarding God's sovereignty?
1: Josiah kept the passover to his Lord in Jerusalem; he killed the passover lamb on the fourteenth day of the first month, 2: having placed the priests according to their divisions, arrayed in their garments, in the temple of the Lord. 3: And he told the Levites, the temple servants of Israel, that they should sanctify themselves to the Lord and put the holy ark of the Lord in the house which Solomon the king, the son of David, had built; 4: and he said, "You need no longer carry it upon your shoulders. Now worship the Lord your God and serve his people Israel; and prepare yourselves by your families and kindred, 5: in accordance with the directions of David king of Israel and the magnificence of Solomon his son. Stand in order in the temple according to the groupings of the fathers' houses of you Levites, who minister before your brethren the people of Israel, 6: and kill the passover lamb and prepare the sacrifices for your brethren, and keep the passover according to the commandment of the Lord which was given to Moses." 7: And Josiah gave to the people who were present thirty thousand lambs and kids, and three thousand calves; these were given from the king's possessions, as he promised, to the people and the priests and Levites. 8: And Hilkiah, Zechariah, and Jehiel, the chief officers of the temple, gave to the priests for the passover two thousand six hundred sheep and three hundred calves. 9: And Jeconiah and Shemaiah and Nethanel his brother, and Hashabiah and Ochiel and Joram, captains over thousands, gave the Levites for the passover five thousand sheep and seven hundred calves. 10: And this is what took place. The priests and the Levites, properly arrayed and having the unleavened bread, stood according to kindred 11: and the grouping of the fathers' houses, before the people, to make the offering to the Lord as it is written in the book of Moses; this they did in the morning. 12: They roasted the passover lamb with fire, as required; and they boiled the sacrifices in brass pots and caldrons, with a pleasing odor, 13: and carried them to all the people. Afterward they prepared the passover for themselves and for their brethren the priests, the sons of Aaron, 14: because the priests were offering the fat until night; so the Levites prepared it for themselves and for their brethren the priests, the sons of Aaron. 15: And the temple singers, the sons of Asaph, were in their place according to the arrangement made by David, and also Asaph, Zechariah, and Eddinus, who represented the king. 16: The gatekeepers were at each gate; no one needed to depart from his duties, for their brethren the Levites prepared the passover for them. 17: So the things that had to do with the sacrifices to the Lord were accomplished that day: the passover was kept 18: and the sacrifices were offered on the altar of the Lord, according to the command of King Josiah. 19: And the people of Israel who were present at that time kept the passover and the feast of unleavened bread seven days. 20: No passover like it had been kept in Israel since the times of Samuel the prophet; 21: none of the kings of Israel had kept such a passover as was kept by Josiah and the priests and Levites and the men of Judah and all of Israel who were dwelling in Jerusalem. 22: In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah this passover was kept. 23: And the deeds of Josiah were upright in the sight of the Lord, for his heart was full of godliness. 24: The events of his reign have been recorded in the past, concerning those who sinned and acted wickedly toward the Lord beyond any other people or kingdom, and how they grieved the Lord deeply, so that the words of the Lord rose up against Israel. 25: After all these acts of Josiah, it happened that Pharaoh, king of Egypt, went to make war at Carchemish on the Euphrates, and Josiah went out against him. 26: And the king of Egypt sent word to him saying, "What have we to do with each other, king of Judea? 27: I was not sent against you by the Lord God, for my war is at the Euphrates. And now the Lord is with me! The Lord is with me, urging me on! Stand aside, and do not oppose the Lord." 28: But Josiah did not turn back to his chariot, but tried to fight with him, and did not heed the words of Jeremiah the prophet from the mouth of the Lord. 29: He joined battle with him in the plain of Megiddo, and the commanders came down against King Josiah. 30: And the king said to his servants, "Take me away from the battle, for I am very weak." And immediately his servants took him out of the line of battle. 31: And he got into his second chariot; and after he was brought back to Jerusalem he died, and was buried in the tomb of his fathers. 32: And in all Judea they mourned for Josiah. Jeremiah the prophet lamented for Josiah, and the principal men, with the women, have made lamentation for him to this day; it was ordained that this should always be done throughout the whole nation of Israel. 33: These things are written in the book of the histories of the kings of Judea; and every one of the acts of Josiah, and his splendor, and his understanding of the law of the Lord, and the things that he had done before and these that are now told, are recorded in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah. 34: And the men of the nation took Jeconiah the son of Josiah, who was twenty-three years old, and made him king in succession to Josiah his father. 35: And he reigned three months in Judah and Jerusalem. Then the king of Egypt deposed him from reigning in Jerusalem, 36: and fined the nation a hundred talents of silver and a talent of gold. 37: And the king of Egypt made Jehoiakim his brother king of Judea and Jerusalem. 38: Jehoiakim put the nobles in prison, and seized his brother Zarius and brought him up out of Egypt. 39: Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he began to reign in Judea and Jerusalem, and he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. 40: And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against him, and bound him with a chain of brass and took him away to Babylon. 41: Nebuchadnezzar also took some holy vessels of the Lord, and carried them away, and stored them in his temple in Babylon. 42: But the things that are reported about Jehoiakim and his uncleanness and impiety are written in the chronicles of the kings. 43: Jehoiachin his son became king in his stead; when he was made king he was eighteen years old, 44: and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem. He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord. 45: So after a year Nebuchadnezzar sent and removed him to Babylon, with the holy vessels of the Lord, 46: and made Zedekiah king of Judea and Jerusalem. Zedekiah was twenty-one years old, and he reigned eleven years. 47: He also did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, and did not heed the words that were spoken by Jeremiah the prophet from the mouth of the Lord. 48: And though King Nebuchadnezzar had made him swear by the name of the Lord, he broke his oath and rebelled; and he stiffened his neck and hardened his heart and transgressed the laws of the Lord, the God of Israel. 49: Even the leaders of the people and of the priests committed many acts of sacrilege and lawlessness beyond all the unclean deeds of all the nations, and polluted the temple of the Lord which had been hallowed in Jerusalem. 50: So the God of their fathers sent by his messenger to call them back, because he would have spared them and his dwelling place. 51: But they mocked his messengers, and whenever the Lord spoke, they scoffed at his prophets, 52: until in his anger against his people because of their ungodly acts he gave command to bring against them the kings of the Chaldeans. 53: These slew their young men with the sword around their holy temple, and did not spare young man or virgin, old man or child, for he gave them all into their hands. 54: And all the holy vessels of the Lord, great and small, and the treasure chests of the Lord, and the royal stores, they took and carried away to Babylon. 55: And they burned the house of the Lord and broke down the walls of Jerusalem and burned their towers with fire, 56: and utterly destroyed all its glorious things. The survivors he led away to Babylon with the sword, 57: and they were servants to him and to his sons until the Persians began to reign, in fulfilment of the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah: 58: "Until the land has enjoyed its sabbaths, it shall keep sabbath all the time of its desolation until the completion of seventy years."
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Fr.Deacon:
Then from your comments above, you would not agree to the priority of scripture over all of life. I would hold to the sufficiency, priority, clarity, and Neccessity of Scripture in every facet of life. This is enough for understanding God. We have the precious truths handed down from the prophets and apostles. Church tradition muddings the waters in many ways, givin a fogged view of God's supremacy over all of life.
Joel
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Fr. Deacon:
It is interesting to note the tension of the author as they view God. For instance, Judith (9:5)makes some point that God is behind her plot to be deceitful, while in Esther 13:8 it makes mention that Mordecai prayed for divine wisdom. Let's discuss the motif and balancing act between these books.
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Originally posted by Joel Badal: Fr.Deacon:
Then from your comments above, you would not agree to the priority of scripture over all of life. I would hold to the sufficiency, priority, clarity, and Neccessity of Scripture in every facet of life. This is enough for understanding God. We have the precious truths handed down from the prophets and apostles. Church tradition muddings the waters in many ways, givin a fogged view of God's supremacy over all of life.
Joel Alice goes down another rabbit hole. We do not agree with you on this point. In fact we find the notion rather empty of meaning. But that is not the point of your thread. It hasn't anything to do with it. Don't worry I won't be persistent much longer. If you will not address the point of your thread I will simply wash my hands of this fruitless "discussion". Please, not the rabbit chasing and tell us what the point of this thread is. CDL
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Originally posted by Joel Badal: Fr.Deacon:
Then from your comments above, you would not agree to the priority of scripture over all of life. I would hold to the sufficiency, priority, clarity, and Neccessity of Scripture in every facet of life. This is enough for understanding God. We have the precious truths handed down from the prophets and apostles. Church tradition muddings the waters in many ways, givin a fogged view of God's supremacy over all of life.
Joel As I said, Scripture is written Tradition. It does not stand apart from Tradition, it is Tradition. But there is so much more to tradition. The Church Fathers help us to understand the kerygma or basic teachings of the Church. It is through them and the Ecumenical Councils that we come to understand something of the Trinity: we get insight in perichoresis, into the concept of the ousias of the Persons of the Trinity. This is not found in Scripture, but it is essential to understand otherwise we could find ourselves with the Nestorians (or the Swedenborgonians), with the Arians, the Monophysites, or many other heretical groups that did not follow the orthodox teachings on the Trinity. Tradition does not "muddings [sic] the waters" but, rather, helps to clarify it, to put things in perspective, to reveal the way in which the Apostles understood these teachings (or, at least, the Apostolic Fathers do). But, enough of this. Let's address your thesis. Fr. Deacon Edward
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Sounds like Scripture has taken a back seat in your spiritual growth. Yet, the Apostle Paul says that the Scriptures are breathed out by God and is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17)for bringing the necessary spiritual maturity in our lives. Your grad student, return back to God's word for your source of strength When the Holy Apostle wrote the inspired words above he was referring to the OT Septuagint.
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Originally posted by Joel Badal: Fr. Deacon:
It is interesting to note the tension of the author as they view God. For instance, Judith (9:5)makes some point that God is behind her plot to be deceitful, while in Esther 13:8 it makes mention that Mordecai prayed for divine wisdom. Let's discuss the motif and balancing act between these books. Good for you. Here is something to chew on. I will come back to this tomorrow. CDL
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CDL:
Let's attempt to discuss tomorrow. Tired for now. GOOD NIGHT? How long can this topic stay open for discussion?
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Mr. Moderator:
Is there any way to clear out old postings and only deal with the ones that address the topic?
It would help to keep constitency. Let me know. Should we delete this stream and create a new discussion around the same theme?
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CDL:
If you look at this verse in 55: And they burned the house of the Lord and broke down the walls of Jerusalem and burned their towers with fire, 56: and utterly destroyed all its glorious things
This would seem to go against a sovereignty outlook. What do you think? There seems to be tension even in the book itself of man overpowering God.
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