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#1328 07/18/05 01:30 PM
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Dear Amado,

Well, I doubt very much if the Vatican would require the EP to be in union with it before it would grant its support for such a project.

If anything, the Vatican wouldn't want to do a symbolic repeat of what happened at the council of Florence when the Emperor of Byzantium came to the West, hat in hand, to achieve ecclesial reunion so that he could get military help from Rome to defend Constantinople.

The union flopped, and Constantinople was left to face the forces of Turkey alone. The rest is history - but Rome was surely being short-sighted there.

If Rome wanted to make amends for that historical act of stupidity, then supporting the Phanar in this would be one practical way of doing it (apart from the empty "We're sorry -really!")

When the EP came to Toronto, some Greeks contacted our office to say that the then provincial leadership refused to meet with him because he was not the head of state (as the Pope is).

That was unfortunate because it seemed the government was discriminating against the Orthodox.

Alex

#1329 07/18/05 01:38 PM
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Dear Alex:

Quote
That was unfortunate because it seemed the government was discriminating against the Orthodox.
That was unfortunate but it was NOT discriminatory!

It was/is just the reality under international law and comity.

Amado

#1330 07/18/05 01:44 PM
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Dear Amado,

The majority of Orthodox saw it as discrimination i.e. the government met with the Pope, even held some events for World Youth Day (I attended two as a gov. rep.), but it snubbed the EP.

Certainly, the government could have chosen not to snub it, but it did so on the grounds of international law, whatever.

That doesn't leave a better taste in the mouths of the Orthodox who felt slighted.


That too, is reality!

Alex

#1331 07/18/05 01:53 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Andrew,

Well, speaking as a Catholic, I don't see how any pope or ecumenical council for that matter may define theological truth on the basis of "because I/we say so."
Alex, it was just a flippant way of describing how doctrine becomes infallible.

A post a few back hightlighted to me clearly again why I find PI untenable. That is my feeling, I don't wish to debate it here and I'm sure nobody cares to be argued with.

I'm just happy to be Orthodox. I'll leave it at that.

Andrew

#1332 07/18/05 02:10 PM
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Nothing flippant about Catholic Dogma or ex cathedra/de fide pronouncements, Alex. To deny or even doubt one single ioda of Catholic Dogma puts us outside the Church...basically 'ipso facto' excommunicated. I am fortunate and proud to be Ukrainian Catholic. The bravery and strong Catholic Faith my forefathers held made many of them true martyrs. I have sinned against God and His commandments many times - but would never be so bold or puffed up with pride as to risk arguing with Him and His True Church.

#1333 07/18/05 02:23 PM
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Dear Andrew,

If you're happy, then I'm happy! smile

And I say so . . .

Alex

#1334 07/18/05 02:30 PM
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Dear Lida,

Actually, it was Andrew who said he was being flippant, not me . . .

I'm never flippant . . . wink

That the later 14 Latin Councils of the RC Church are Local Councils is a thesis that has been defended and it is entirely possible for the RC Church to define them as such.

The RC Church has never infallibly defined Orthodox as schismatics and, in any event, doesn't use that terminology today. Neither does it say the stuff the Florentine council said about Jews and Muslims.

In fact, what it says would ONLY apply if someone believed in the truth of Catholicism and still stayed where they are outside of the Catholic Church.

As for the Marian doctrines, we Eastern Catholics and Orthodox have believed Mary's total holiness and assumption into heaven for centuries, from the very beginning.

It is only in the Latin Church that you had people who could legitimately hold otherwise (until the formal dogmatic pronouncements, that is).

If a Roman pope defines an article of faith infallibly, then the Eastern Catholic Churches will accept it.

But as long as they don't ALREADY believe it as part of their Eastern Catholic patrimony of faith.

In the case of the Marian doctrines, they already DID accept both.

And, did you know, that the Eastern Churches also accept the holiness of the Conception of St John the Baptist and that of St Nicholas of Myra?

TAK!

My great-uncle, by the way, was Metropolitan Volodymyr Sterniuk of the underground Church.

A very wonderful man!

Alex

#1335 07/18/05 02:51 PM
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I come from a long line of religious myself...my grandfather was imprisoned for being a Ukrainian Catholic priest during WWII, too...fortunately, escaped to live into his 80's...he refused to accept freedom with the condition he embraced Orthodoxy. My grandmother, while standing pregnant with little toddlers, 'sweet-talked' the Ukrainian Communist guard to let him go. Can you imagine?

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