www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Mary as the Ark of His Covenant

Dear Shiloah,

Christ is Risen!

I wouldn't do that . . .

I was just quoting from the book I have written by the Lutheran pastor.

Some of the best pieces I've ever read on Marian theology and veneration have come from the pens of Protestant writers.


And the Catholics have produced some good stuff too!

God bless,

Alex

O.K. now, back to the Ark. How do you all like thie following page and where does it collide with the Byzantine doctrines, or does it?

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/marian2.html

And here is a free question and my bonus answer with it. Who has other suggestions? What is meant by
"My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:....When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.
23. For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:..." Prov.6:22-23

The answer: Ps.119:105
The Father's commandment - the lamp = His Word (Rev.19:13)
The Law of 'our Mother' - enlightenment = Holy Spirit ("Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." Jn.2:5; Lk.1:38 "be it unto me according to thy word")

Shiloah

Dear Shiloah,

The explanation in that link has nothing that would contradict the Eastern Christian understanding of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

The scriptures make a distinction between God and His Presence and the old Ark itself.

The Ark imagery has only been tied to the truth about the Incarnation of our Lord in the flesh through Mary.

Your explanation of that passage is very good.

The Mother of God Incarnate is there to nurture us in the life in Christ, to assist us to enter fully into the life of the Most Holy Trinity.

To be close to Mary means to take her as one's exemplar in absolute trust, confidence and faith in God, in total abandonment to Divine Providence and in surrender to His Will.

And when the Holy Spirit finds a soul that is close to Mary in this way, He begins to do to that soul what He did to Mary herself many years ago - He starts to form Jesus Christ in it.

Just as Mary is the Mother of Christ our God and gave Him His humanity, so too is she the Mother of the Body of Christ that is His Church.

And her role is one of nurturing us to come to the full spiritual stature in terms of that growth.

Alex

Alex, this is the shortest and sweetest explanation of what Mary is all about that I have ever heard or read. This is an approach that is acceptable across denominational barriers, I would think, and I will actually print it out and take it with me in my Bible to use and share it in ministry. Thank you kindly, Sir.

Shiloah

AMEN AMEN ALEX!

Dear Shiloah and Pani Rose,

Thank you for your kindness!!

I do have my moments . . .

I guess that is why the Administrator lets me hang around, despite my idiosyncracies .

Christ is Risen!

Truly the Lord and Master of Heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible has risen from the dead! (St John of Damascus on the longer response).

Alex

Yes, well, you have been doing so well lately, all over the board, that after reading your many current posts, I find myself with nothing to add or debate you on!

You allow me to grow rusty!

My prayer is, that if you begin to get a big head from doing so well, then God may humiliate you in some other portion of your life, so that we may all continue to benefit from you.

Times of sweet illumination are often followed by further blows of the artist's hammer because he finds the substance so readily pliant and workable.

-ray

Shiloah,

Reading these posts, I cannot get a song out of my head called "Mary, the Dawn". It is a very poetic song, full of imagery to further our meditation on the role of Mary in bringing us Christ.

It goes:

Mary the Dawn, Christ the Perfect Day.
Mary the Gate, Christ the Heavenly Way.
Mary the Root, Christ the Mystic Vine.
Mary the Grape, Christ the Sacred Wine.
Mary the Wheat-sheaf, Christ the Living Bread.
Mary the Rose-tree, Christ the Rose Blood-red.
Mary the Font, Christ the Cleansing Flood.
Mary the Chalice, Christ the Saving Blood.
Mary the Temple, Christ the Temple's Lord.
Mary the Shrine, Christ the God adored.
Mary the Beacon, Christ the Haven's Rest.
Mary the Mirror, Christ the Vision Blest.
Mary the Mother, Christ the Mother's Son.
Both everblest while endless ages run.

The song is included on a CD from Conciliar Press, entitled Rejoice, O Virgin. It also includes the Pascha hymn entitled, "The Angel Cried", a glorious easter meditation, which you may be singing at your parish this Pascha, which is one of my favorite songs. May your searching be fruitful through the intercession of the Theotokos, Tammy, (also in Virginia)

Dear Shiloah:

Please allow me to open discussion regarding the post quoted above. What I say below is for your consideration, and I do not consider anything �lost�, if you see nothing in it.

We must consider that Jesus, being also full man, a human, lived at a certain time within human history, and limited his human nature to human things. Yes, there were times when his human nature was raised, like within the Transfiguration and such, but for the majority of time his human nature was limited to - well - the limits of human nature. We can certainly see this during the crucifixion.

His time �here� was within a certain period of human history, and within a certain society and civilization. In plain - he was born into a Jewish society at a time in which Pontus Pilate was the Roman procreator.

Since the bible, as you read it, is brought to you by the work of many scholars who have studied the culture and languages used - there seems no doubt to me that you would be willing to say that knowing the cultural context and use of language - used by the books of the bible - are very important to understanding it. If not, then what we would be saying is that only the original manuscripts are valid - and we have so few of these - and as regarding the New Testament - we have none.

So with that, may I present to you what Jesus (as a Jew) and his disciples - would have understood the meaning of the term �the Word of God� for it did not apply to - scriptures.

The �Word� of God (as signified in John) was understood to be the Logos. This word �logos� borrowed from the Greek, is borrowed for its similarity to a Jewish concept of God bringing about creation (at every moment) by the act of - speaking. Therefore the translators who translated John�s original gospel (probably written in Hebrew or Aramaic) selected the tern Greek word Logos - and the translators to English selected the tern �word�.

The term Logos, has a meaning that is not as simple to convey into English. It has the meaning of
the original pattern�. To give you a sense of that I must tell you of carpentry.

When a carpenter is building a house, he takes a long board and marks on it the cuts he must make in order to create the roof beams. For the typical roof - it is a peak which is like this /\ peaked at the center and sloping down on each side. The peak is one long board and to make each sloping side - the carpenter must cut roof joists - placed 16 or 24 inches apart - which are nailed at the peak and )sloping down) at the walls. Knowing the angle of the roof (the pitch) he takes a carpenters square and marks the angle for the peak and the �birds mouth� which is a notch that will fit the wall. The cuts - will all depend on that pitch the roof is at and where the birds mouth must notch into the wall. What the carpenter does - is take this first board and lays it out as where to cut - and then he cuts it. He now uses that first cut joist - as a pattern - and laying it onto of all the other boards that will become roof joists - he traces the pattern on each board� and cuts accordingly. In this way he does not have to measure and mark, individually, each roof joist - because each roof joist is really just a copy of the original - first - joist.

By the way, this is what Paul means when he says that the resurrection of Jesus - is of the �first born� and that we will be resurrected like him. What Paul means by that is that the resurrection of Jesus - is the original - the first - the pattern - by which all other resurrections are derived. Note that there were many resurrections that took place before Jesus resurrected - Lazareth being the most obvious in the gospels. A partial list of resurrections that took place within Israel before Jesus is given in the letter to the Hebrews.

So with that we can understand that when the scriptures talk of anything being - first - it may not necessarily be meaning a first in time sequence - but more like the ideal, the original, the best, the perfect, that all others are a copy of.

The term Logos (explained well in the Greek writings of Plotinus) is something which can only be contemplated. It is not what it produces (the copy which we can know by our senses) it is the pattern which exists in the mind. In that sense - when we think of the carpenter - the pattern that the joists will take exists firstly in the mind of the carpenter - and the carpenter (by his measuring and marking) makes a copy of that Patten in his mind - onto that first joist.

As I said before, this Greek concept of Logos, is comparable to the Jewish concept that we call �word�. The Jewish concept originates in Genesis� where � to signify the unknowable mystery by which the things and events of this natural world come to-be, the image of a man speaking is used.

God speaks - and it - is. The comparison here is to when one man speaks something to another man - what is spoken comes to exist (through no material means of making) in the mind of the listener. For example� if you and I sat together and I spoke the word �train� - upon hearing my word �train� there would immediately come to exist in your own mind - a train. No a physical train of course but the idea - the concept. Through, what is likened to the use of no physical means - I spoke the word - and it came to exist within you.

God spoke �Let there be light� and it was.

When we consider the creation as a total, a whole (all things and all events of past, present, and future) it is considered as one �thing� and it is the Logos (singular) which is that pattern buy which it is all - in its entirely - created. If we speak of individual things (in a way of being individual identifies within the Logos) the Greek term is Logi (plural).

As a pattern, the Logos is that which governs - how, why, when, where, what - of creation and created things and events.

In today�s language and meaning of words, we do not say �Logos� but we use the word �Providence� which word, through the meaning of �the providing that God does� - governs the how, why, when, where, what - by which any thing or event comes to-be. And without it �no-thing came to be.� (John speaking of the Logos). We also call this the �Will of God�. Providence is the Will of God in action.

So to Jesus and his disciples and the Jews of the time of Jesus - the word Logos - has the meaning of the Will of God in action. It is that �force� or power that is also a pattern and governing - by which all things and events come to-be.

For the Christian, it is also - a person. It is the resurrected Jesus Christ (which we can not now know directly with our body senses) which is the �first born� son. The ideal. The original. The origin. The pattern - and the governing of all things and events which come to-be - and without which no-thing comes to-be.

To the Jew, it is the ultimate Law (that which all things and events must obey). To the Christian it is also a person (the resurrected Christ) and it is the Will of God not only because Jesus is the second person of the Trinity but also because Jesus always does �the will of my father� who is the first person of the Trinity.

Strictly speaking - scriptures is not - the Word of God - the resurrected person of Jesus Christ is. Any infallibility belongs to the Word of God only if that Word of God is the Will of God in action, Providence, and the person Jesus Christ himself.

How is it that scriptures came to be called the �Word� if the Word (Logos) is an �energy� and action, a person??

As I said, for the Jew of the time (the Jew of the Old Testament times and of the times in which the New Testament came to be written)??

As I said, the Jew (except of Jesus) considered the Word to be the same as the Law (that which governs all things and all events). It was the expressed Will - of God - which governs and brings about - all things and all events of past, present and future. It is the beginning of all things (Alpha) and the end of all things (Omega). When thought of a one, all encompassing power - it is the singular (Logos) and as it exist within individual things or events it is the Logi or plural). In this way the Logos exists within individual things and events. When these individual things or events are the subject - it is the many (Logi) or if speaking of the Jewish use it is �Words�� and so it is that to us Christians, when we think of the Ten Commandments - to the Jew it is the �Ten Words�. So if you were to ask a Jew (who was not lax in his own religious training) �what is the Word of God?� he would replay with the Ten Commandments which is the summation of the Old Law given to the Jews - just as we Christians would reply with a summation of the New Testament.

Both the Old and New testaments - are - testaments. That is, the writings of human witnesses - to something. They are not THE �something� but thay are a human telling of witnessing the actions of that �something�. In the same way that any witness, called to the stand in court - tells of his witnessing of some event or events.

All scriptures, are inspired - meaning motivated - by God. They are inspired and motivated through the fact that the witnesses (those humans who wrote about these things) witnessed the events. While the origin of the inspiration (God) may be infallible - the media (the human in which the inspiration has its effects) is not infallible. If Jesus himself - had sat down and written one of the books of scriptures we might say that IT is infallible - but Jesus saved us many human troubles by not doing that. So it is that those humans who translated the inspiration into writing (recorded the events witnessed) are not infallible about everything that wrote. In several places of the New Testament, the author of the book makes error in quoting the Old Testament or makes error of which book or section he is quoting from.

So, while many Christians speak of the �Word of God� as being scriptures - we do so in a secondary, human witness, and human fallible manner. This use, came to be more prominent and began to be thought of in a primacy and infallible manner - when Protestism split from the Catholic Church and began to deny that the magisterial of the Catholic Church was guided by the living Word of God (the governing of the resurrected Jesus Christ). The Protestants raised the authority of scriptures (being how they understood scriptures) to be higher than the authority of the magisterial authority of the Catholic Church (this would include and authority of ecclesia or magisterial authority of the Orthodox church also).

In summation - I offer this to you for your future consideration. I do not expect you to agree with me. But I plant these thoughts in you so that in the future, while reading scriptures and especially y the New Testament - that when ever you encounter the terms �the word� you might consider if what is being spoken about in not primarily - the invisible person of the resurrected Jesus Christ in his action of Providence and the governing of all events and things which come to-be. And that it is this - living and acting Jesus (the Word, the Logos) which is claimed to be the guide of the magistrium (successors to the office of the apostles).

Scriptures is not primarily a �how to� book, it is primarily a �what happened� book.

Thank you for listening, and, as always, this is just my opinion, and I am really nobody of any special importance.


By the way, I am aware of your choice of name "Shiloah" as being very expressive of your own spirituality. It is a good name... it was a good time in the life of Israel... and it is a good spirituality. It expresses a freedom and voluntary love for God.

-ray

Dear RayK,

Sometimes you amaze me! Also, please do not say this is only your opinion. I believe it comes from the mouth of the Church, speaking with the authority of the Word, Himself.

Dear Shiloah,

You have been given much here to contemplate. The Lord is leading you into all Truth. With your humble and teachable heart, you will learn much. May it all be for the glory of God the Word! Peace of Christ to you. Tammy

Dear RayK,

what an elaborate answer to my humble remark. Thank you very much. It really must have touched your heart, that you went to such great length to share yours with me in return.

And thanks for the compliment on my name Shiloah - yes, it was a very intentional choice . With it I express that I have bound myself to the One Who was sent by the Father for our Salvation.

Ray, I think you expressed very clearly your thoughts about what Scripture is, with all the reference to a carpenter's work and also to the Jewish culture.

And I can agree with what you say. I'm not going to comment on every sentence you said. That would take it too far. I think I understand what you were saying. Some of it reminded me of Rev.19:13 which says " And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Also, when the Jews speak of 'the Law' and when it is mentioned as such in Scripture, it refers to the Torah which was their Law/Book of Instructions, and still is in the synagogues in form of the Torah Scrolls. In the Septuagint it was called 'nomia' which meant in the Greek understanding of the time 'unalterable law'. The benefits of following these Divine Instructions are numbered in Ps.19:7-11 .

In the times of Jesus on earth, and after His glorious Resurrection, He also was referred to as HaTorah, which means The Torah, because He was understood by the believers to be the Living Word of God, the personified Word (and will ) of God. Everything in the Torah from the very first words and (Hebrew)letters in Genesis, point to the Messiah. Here is something the readers of this forum might not be familiar with:

The two wooden sticks on which the Scroll is hanging, are called the Etz HaChayim or Tree of Life. The parchment on which is written is made out of perfect lamb hides. They are pierced (where sewn together) and striped (as invisible lines written on), and its contents is HaTorah - the Commandments (Word and Will) of God from Genesis to Deuteronomy. All of it represents the Messiah, as you will understand.

There are over 50 occasions in which the name of Yeshua (Hebrew for Jesus) is mentioned throughout the Old Testament, and it is translated as "deliverance, health, help(-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare" in the KJV (Strong's H# 3444).

Yes, I totally agree about how you interpret the "first" . I think your thought is represented in Col.1:16-18 which says: " For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Yes, certainly the human beings who wrote down the Books of the Bible were not infallible, but they were chosen vessels for the purpose, and I will not dispute their righteousness, but rather remind myself of the last verses of Rev.22 and commend myself with them to you,
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Shiloah

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Gen.49:10

Dear Shiloah,

How wonderful that you share the same view of Scripture as do the Catholic and Orthodox Churches!

Alex

Ray, the Church is composed of the people (fallible) and the Head of the Church, Jesus Christ (infallible), right?

I found a statement on http://www.goholycross.org/ which reads: "The Church is the only authentic and infallible teacher of the revealed truth. "

Could you please clarify? (Others welcome to help out, just as well ) And thank you kindly,
Shiloah

Dear Shiloah,

Remember, the warning at the end of the book of Revelation is regarding the book of Revelation. There was no "book" of the Bible in that age. Only scattered scrolls. It is an errant notion to consider the Bible as the ONLY foundation for Christianity, seeing as how the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church preceeded the Canon of Scripture. Christ, in his wisdom, founded a Church, and gave that Church authority. This is what scripture tells us. He did not write a book, though he was living in his saints as they later wrote the story. If He had intended the notion of sola scriptura (scripture alone) do you think he may have spent his earthly time differently? His time was spent grooming his apostles, and teaching the people how they ought to live. He was forming them to carry on the Tradition. Nor does he even advise them, in the pages of scripture, "to go and make sure you write this all down accurately." His command to them is go to all nations and baptize them. The very first recorded history of the apostles after His resurrection shows them communing together with Peter as their head, to make decisions in council. The book of Acts shows them living as he taught them to carry on. Much later, did their successors carry out an accurate rendering of the Canon of Scripture. Besides the necessary work of salvation which He came to accomplish, Christ's other task was the founding of a Church. And to that Church was given all authority. If your reading of scripture keeps this one idea firmly in mind, you will see things in the light of the Holy Spirit, which light is constant and unchanging forever and ever and unto the end of the age. Praying for you, in Christ our Peace, Tammy

Thanks for your comment, Tammy, and for your prayers

I am aware that the end verses of the Book of Revelation are meant for that particular book. Yet I take it as a general warning not to temper with what we now have as New Testament or even Old AND New Testaments.

I do believe that 1.Thess.2:13 and 2.Thess.2:13-15 still apply today because of 1.Cor.2:13 which I do not want to limit to the Apostles only but include all those our Lord prayed for with the following words in John 17;20-21 " Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee".

with that, I think we're still on the same page, Tammy

Shiloah who appreciates your all's input very much