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Dear Chance...

I had said...

>The Buddhists have a similar practice and
>they too call it 'Watchfulness'.

They call it 'Mindfullness' but it is the same ascetic practice.

You see...

The subconscious mind (or shall we say the automatic mind) is continually at work. Without it we would always be as fresh to the world as a new born baby. It is an assistant to the conscious mind. But its own intelligence is less than the conscious mind and it has not the capacity and capability to know anything about God. It�s purpose (in our design) is to run the functions of soma (body or as St. Paul sez: �the members�) so that we need not constantly have to consciously direct such functions as heart rate, breathing, body temperature, physical responses, etc� or those things which directly concern the operations of our animal nature.

One of its most important functions is to pre-process the data of our perceptions (senses) through a mechanism of comparison (contents of memory) with past experiences. In this way the automatic mind (for example) receives some perception / does a lightening fast comparison / and then presents to our conscious mind that it believes that what we are seeing is (for example) a circle - or a dog - or a car - a tree - etc� As I said, without this automatic function at the un-concious level of our spirit (mind) we would always and at every moment be as helpless as a new born baby who is experiencing the things of the world for the very first time.

When the conscious mind does things in a repetitive way� the subconscious mind sez �Here - let me do that for you� and a habit - is created - a habit of the subconscious mind. Now can you imagine just how difficult it would be if any time we drove a car we had to conciously be aware of the gas pedel, the steering, the brake, the roaod, etc.. no... these things become a interactive function of the subconsious mind ... with only a little conscious guidance needed.

This subconscious process then - tints - our perceptions and our conscious thoughts. It is an aide to our perceptions of reality - or - a hindrance to our perceptions of reality. Depending.

These non-conscious - thoughts (the thoughts and logic processes of the non-conscious mind) run around all the time. And their job - is - not only to free the concious mind of so much work but also to occationally present themselves to the conscious mind. Most of the time their job is simply to operate the automatic machinery of the body and psychological mind... our animal nature - what St. Paul calls the law of the members.

Holiness or personal sanctification� takes place on the level of the subconscious. As the early spiritual fathers used to say � �in the memories�.

Now, a human mind, can not be without thoughts. It is - impossible - by very design. No more than a river can be without flow (else it is - not a river).

So when the desert fathers talk of contemplation and such as being �without thoughts�� what they rather mean is that the attention (our awareness) is not bound up in the thoughts of the psychological mind.

Even if a man have a thought to be without thoughts - he has the thought - to be - without thoughts. Do you see the dichotomy? And so being �without thoughts� should be understood to be not a literal thing but rather pointing to something.

Our part in holiness - is to not live within some of our habits which habits are totally bound to our animal nature. Now this is a simple way to say it but this posting space is much too small for elaborations.

The change of these habits is two fold. First - we need to disassociate from them (not live in them - pay no attention to them) and secondly reality itself (Providence) must rebuild them. And so it is for us to prepare the ground (ascetics) for the new planting (Providence).
John Cassian - Chapter XVI (A question on the changing charater of the thoughts).

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GERMANUS asks� How is it then, that even against our will, yes and without our knowledge - idle thoughts sneak upon us so subtly and secretly that it is frightfully hard not merely to drive them away, but even to grasp and seize them? Can then a mind sometimes be found free from them, and never attacked by illusions of this kind?
To which the elder MOSES answers�

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It is impossible for the mind not to be approached by thoughts, but it is in the power of every earnest man either to admit them or to reject them. As their rising up does not entirely depend on ourselves [our conscious efforts], so the rejection or admission of them does lie within our own power. But because we said that it is impossible for the mind not to be approached by thoughts, you must not lay everything to the blame of the assault, or to those spirits who strive to instill them into us, else there would not remain any free will in man, nor would efforts for our improvement be in our power:
I have emphasized a few things here is display that it is impossible to be without - any - thoughts� and that it is ridiculous to blame all �bad thoughts� on external causes.

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but it is, I say, to a great extent in our power to improve the character of our thoughts and to let either holy and spiritual thoughts (or earthly ones) grow up in our hearts. For this purpose frequent reading and continual meditation on the Scriptures is employed that from there an opportunity for spiritual recollection may be given to us, therefore the frequent singing of Psalms is used, that the constant feelings of compunction may be provided, and earnest vigils and fasts and prayers, that the mind may be brought low (humbled) and pay no attention to earthly things, but contemplate things celestial, for if these things (pratices) are dropped and carelessness creeps on us, the mind being hardened with the foulness of sin is sure to incline in a carnal direction and fall away.
And so what you see is that the desert man gives his subconscious mind - spiritual thoughts to chew on. Thus the habit (non-conscious mind) of constantly chewing on �earthly� matters (things regarding living in the world of body) are given a rest.

The mind (our subconscious nature) has two sides. An analytical function and an awareness / attention function.

These two functions (faculties) are as if on a see-saw. That is to say that - to the degree we are at attention and awareness we are less at analytics. To the degree we are at mental analytics we can not be at attention and awareness. When one goes up the other goes down.

Now this is the princilple behind 'Watchfulness'. It is an attention and awarensss of (inside) our thoughts. And if the thoughts being presented to us by the subconcious mind are just idle chatter or the type of thoughts that we would rather be without... the very fact of our notice of them tends to lessen them (the old see-saw) or we can conciously replace them by giving our mind other thoughts to work with. Thus we are involved with the inner work of changing the habits of our mind (hearts). Knowing whch thoughts are good to entertain and which thoughts are not good to be involved with - is a function of discernment (conscience) and not so much a thing of logic, rules, and reasoning.

Do you see? Or shall I stop because this is of no real interest to you? It might be of interest because it goes to the very heart of the ascetics of desert spirituality.

-ray


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Ray,

I'm not really interested in the Buddhist take on the Desert Fathers or a psychological explanation. Been there, done that in my martial arts studies and in my human potential days when I knocked off a M.S. in clinical psychology.

My kind thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on the matter.

Peace

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Originally posted by Chance:
Ray,

I'm not really interested in the Buddhist take on the Desert Fathers or a psychological explanation.

Peace
I wasn't giving you a Buddhist take. Nor was I reducing it to mere modern psychology... I am sorry that your expereinces soured you... but yes asetics does involve our psychological nature else so many spiritual fathers of the mystical life who wrote for our benefit ... wrote for ... nothing.

Good luck to you Chance.

Peace to you and your church.

-ray


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Chance�

Last words...

If you did not know... John Cassian is not a Buddhist.

http://www.osb.org/lectio/cassian/

Bye and good luck.

-ray


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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Chance,

However, we shouldn't be into Origen or Gregory of Nyssa without solid Orthodox/Catholic commentary and guidance . . .

Alex
You are very very right Alex. Doing any study in these early works requires a solid grounding in one's own theology (East or West) first. I often make the mistake of assuming that people are grounded well.

I should not be so quick to throw out answers which may be very confusing to some. After all, my answers are usually confusing to even well grounded people, and cause debate or just silence.

Thanks. I am humbled.

-ray


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Dear Ray,

Not a problem, Big Guy.

Not all of us have your solid grounding and that could be a problem when reading something that could be controversial.

On the other hand, one could always write you for advice! smile

(I've used a number of your brilliant explanations of scripture and tradition in my religion class to great effect, by the way!)

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

On the other hand, one could always write you for advice! smile

Alex
ha ha... as if my advise would be any eaiser to understand. wink

But on that note... if you tell me that you PM box is open (or send me email at rkaliss1@cox.net) I would love to tell you (tell someone who would understand) of something recent.

I had been wondering how - God gives each human - tailor made individual Providence. I mean... so here I am... one guy... and there are a billion people (near me and far away which I shall never meet) so how is it that God can give each man individual Providence - when - we so are connected (with people near us) in what we do??

I had forgotten all about this and was at work late in the evening (no one else around) and decided to jump into the indoor pool for a cool swim. Once I was in the pool (chin deep) I looked at the water and - there it was. Nothing mystical - just how the water bent the light. Now I will stop there because people would be right to think me crazy. But in what I saw with the bent light in the water - I understood it! Again.. I say this was nothing mystical. Or - was it?? No - it was just very coincidential. I will explain it to you if your PM box is open. Then - you must go jump in a swimming pool - chin deep - to see what I am talking about. Of course it is probable that you already understand this whole thing in a nice simple way and it is only I who needed show-time to understand it.

Yes. I am a dope. I just found a rare out of print book ($48) on the structure of the gospel of John. It may have been the very last copy availiable in the world. One book I have is so rare (I got it for $12.00) that it is now valued at $2K in used books. I assume other people do this too. (as if they did not have a life!). And tonight I am putting together a way to copy some books over into mp3 so I can listen to them at work.

anyways...

I must reflect - before I post and not automatically take things to the highest notch.

-ray


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Dear Ray,

Actually, I'll have to disagree strongly.

You ain't no dope, Big Guy! smile

The Spirit has given you many important Gifts of His that you are rightly dividing for the benefit of the Body of Christ.

And I'm one of the recipients.

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by Chance:
Ray,

I'm not really interested in the Buddhist take on the Desert Fathers or a psychological explanation. Been there, done that in my martial arts studies and in my human potential days when I knocked off a M.S. in clinical psychology.

My kind thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on the matter.

Peace
Dear Chance,

I noticed in another thread where you mentioned that you are a secular Carmelite, so I was thinking that you might be familiar with Father Thomas Dubay's book called "Fire and Light".

There's another one of his books called "Faith and Certitude" and it addresses your concerns here in a very thorough and systematic manner using Scripture, Science and Scholarship to examine the human heart and mind and put it in the perspective of real cases. His chapters on "Clarifying Our Concepts", "The Causes of Error", and "How We Attain Certitude" directly address the concerns you express here.

If or when you have a chance, get hold of that text and read it as you continue your explorations of the Fathers.

Eli

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Eli wrote:
I noticed in another thread where you mentioned that you are a secular Carmelite, so I was thinking that you might be familiar with Father Thomas Dubay's book called "Fire and Light".

There's another one of his books called "Faith and Certitude" and it addresses your concerns here in a very thorough and systematic manner using Scripture, Science and Scholarship to examine the human heart and mind and put it in the perspective of real cases.


Yes, indeed--I wore out a whole pack of highligthers on "Fire and Light." It's perhaps one of the best study guides, if you can call 300+ pages a study guide, for the writings of Mother Teresa and Father John. smile

I have a number of Fr. Dubay's other works but not, "Faith and Certitude." I'll add it to the list.

I think in my original post and questions, I was also fishing to see how Byzantine Christians used St. Climacus' Ladder in their own spirituality. It's often compared to Kempis' Imitation of Christ as being one of the most popular spiritual writings to read after scripture.

Peace

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Originally posted by Chance:
Yes, indeed--I wore out a whole pack of highligthers on "Fire and Light." It's perhaps one of the best study guides, if you can call 300+ pages a study guide, for the writings of Mother Teresa and Father John. smile

I have a number of Fr. Dubay's other works but not, "Faith and Certitude." I'll add it to the list.
Since you are not only interested but familiar then let me recommend also a companion volume called "Authenticity". That one is even more deeply rooted in Scripture and I've worn out several copies over the years. "Authenticity" takes several themes inherent in discernment what were introduced in "Faith and Certitude" and develops them even more proufoundly.

Quote
I think in my original post and questions, I was also fishing to see how Byzantine Christians used St. Climacus' Ladder in their own spirituality. It's often compared to Kempis' Imitation of Christ as being one of the most popular spiritual writings to read after scripture.
Set up a new topic and ask the more general question that you ask here: do you use holy father, Saint John; and if so, how do you use his text? is it good to use such a dense text without guidance? That sort of thing. If that is what is of interest to you of course. Keep probing away at it till you catch someone's interest.

St. John's text is so much more dense than the Imitation, and much harsher and more difficult to absorb rightly and use, without help and guidance of a spiritual elder or father.

Keep asking. You'll find many things along that way.

Eli

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