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Wild Goose:

I think that if we take a look at St. Gregory's thesis, we'd have to look at "perfection" as a "state" and "state" has the same root as "static"--meaning that it "stands," is not moving. Then I'd have to wonder if one were ever to reach such a state if one would then have to look around and ask "Now what?" It seems antithetical to what we know of as life: growth and change. I compare what someone once told me about a real definition of death: that one cannot or will not grow by learning and changing.

St. Gregory sketches his vision as analgous to climbing a mountain. God takes us from one plane to another. When we teach the upper plane, we achieve a better vision of what our relationship with Him ought to be and what we ought to be continuing to do. It gives us a clearer vision of the Gospel itself and how it ought to leaven our lives. At the same time this new plane beckons to another higher plane to which we are invited by the Grace of God to move toward. And each time the vision becomes brighter, clearer, and more expanded while our relationship with the God Who loves us becomes stronger by the effort of "climbing."

St. Gregory goes on to suggest that this "climbing" and growing and learning will continue in eternity as God continues to reveal something more and more to us about Himself, thereby deepening our relationship eternally. Since we are finite, God is infinite, and eternity never ends, we have a lot to learn and a never ending span of existence to do it in.

It seems to me that this dynamic makes "holiness" something exciting--an adventure with a Lover. What could be more exciting?

This book is available in English translation from St. Vladimir's Seminary Press in Crestwood, Tuckahoe, New York, USA. It's been one of those I bought long ago and like to return to once in awhile.

In Christ,

BOB

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For the sake of discussion and not to argue or correct anyone...

if were are talking 'perfection' as in Jesus telling us in the gospels "you must be perfect..." then we are talking about something that - we do or is with our part.

In the schema of the mystical or spiritual life... there are three stages...

Purgation
Enlightenment
Union

these three stages take place within us... and so perfection corresponds to the unitive stage.

These stages are codified in the Doctors of the Church. East as well as West.

Consciousness (that which we most often think we are) is just the tip of the iceberg. Our personality includes our deeper subconscious. That subconscious is our psyche (which is Greek for spirit). We must become spiritual (said Paul) which means aware of this level of ourselves, and "our battle is in spiritual places" which again means - in our psychological mind.

Both Eastern and Western mystical theology teach that sanctification takes place - in the memory... the habitual part of our mind. A slow process (slowed by our own free will reluctance) that must be done in a knowing cooperation with Providence. In other words - we can not do it by ourselves. And thell tell us that we can not know God with our senses but that we know God within our spirit (pshyche - mind).

The events of this world - are arranged by Good - as a formative process for us. There are the 'set stage' in which (if we cooperate) our virtues grow ("you shall know them by their fruits").

Therefore - I do see 'perfection' as a condition (not really a state - we enter into). A condition where our free will of choosing to cooperate with God - becomes a habitual tendency of our subconscious... replacing ... the hidden motivations toward sin (self-providence).

Q:Where does purgation take place?
A:The habitual and subconscious layers of our mind (spirit).

Q:Where does enlightenment take place?
A:In the intuitive part of our mind (sublevels).

East and West - the Doctors of the Church teach that enlightenment is an intuition (in-teaching) that takes place within our conscience (together-knowing) and within the imagination (presented in the signs and symbols appropriate to our imaginative faculty).

Certainly the purpose of enlightenment is to give - eyes - to the will - because we can not desire with the will what out intellect can not see.

Therefore - perfection is synonymous with the stage of Union or called 'mystical marriage' and is a condition of our spiritual nature (our mind and psychology) that is now one of habit.

Sin (non-cooperation with Providence) or cooperation (doing the will of God) is an immediate choice it is true - but if we admit that sin becomes a habit (unconscious tendency that sways consciousness) than we must also admit that holiness (doing the will of God) also becomes a habit.

Since Jesus said "you must become perfect as your heavily father is perfect" and we already know he was not talking about intellect but rather selection according to the will ("those who do my fathers will are my brothers... <family> ...") then the perfection spoken of is certainly something that we do our part in - and that perfection spoken of resides - in us (out spiritual nature - our mind - our psyche).

Now (to discuss further) as regards St. Gregory saying that perfection is a pagan concept ...

As most people here know, I do not regard the early fathers as error free at all times (other wise Councils would not have been needed to decide issues and doctrine between their debates and variations of ideas on things). Nor to I think even saint in perfect union (a thing of the will) are intellectually error free - that is not a requirement of sainthood - virtue is the requirement. And I note that even the apostles were sometimes in some degree of error about certain things in their epistles (a few misquotes of scriptures). They were not yet in full union but were in the process themselves.

So as regards Gregory saying that perfection is not a Christian ideal but a pagan concept (if that was indeed his meaning)... I have two problems with his misunderstanding (unless we have misunderstood him). The first I have already dealt with - that there - is - a Christian understanding of a condition of us that is called perfection by Jesus (habitual holiness - mystical union before physical death). And secondly - many of the early fathers used the term pagan in a negative way - and an unfair negative in many situations.

If we call people pagans who had some type of religious beliefs - before Jesus came - they had no way to as yet know - Jesus and Christianity. This is certainly not a fault or sin of theirs. The Jewish covenant of Moses - was restricted - to genetic line - or conversion. Conversions were rare for two reasons 1) Jews did not go out seeking converts 2) the Jewish nation was small in comparison to other kingdoms and so it was not well known.

The word pagan comes from the Greek god - Pan - who was a god of nature - and so it symbolizes - pagan - as those who worships the forces of nature in some way and for some reason - or worshiped god as evidence by the forces of nature. Many of the fathers used the word �pagan� to indicate any one or group who did not believe in Jesus Christ. Yet again I say that those who lived before Jesus came - have no personal fault in not knowing anything about him. They can not know what had not yet been revealed.

I have no problem with a definition of �pagan� for people today who do know enough about Jesus and Christianity - and prefer to reject Jesus in favor of a nature based religion. These seems to me to be some bit of personal fault there - if one knows something of Jesus and rejects that for - nature - alone. But I do have a problems with some of these early fathers who lay a personal fault of sin on those who did not know anything about Jesus (he had not come yet) and worshiped God through evidence of him via nature (and may I remind us that Paul said God is evidenced by the evidence of the natural world) or who worshiped him - short - by worshiping the unknowable God through what he does in nature.

All of us are part �pagan� in that we see the forces of nature and the natural world (and we do not see God) and so - the same as we view a crucifix or icon - these natural things and forces - prompt us to worship the unknowable God who made them. Which Christian does not turn his mind to God when he witnesses some spectacular force of nature? Which Christian can look out over a field at night and see a huge lightening strike - and not think of the God who �threw the bolt� and created the event in the natural world?

And I say this - only - in so much as - we would like to believe that these early fathers were something more than human - but the fact is - they were humans yet still in progress of sanctification. The results of Councils - we can take as pretty concrete if we know the context of the Council - but we must takes the writings of the early church fathers with a gain of salt names �human� and not imagine that everything they said was right on the money.

These are my current thoughts.

-ray


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Ray:

I think that your reference to "habitual holiness" is the PROCESS that St. Gregory is speaking about. I don't think the word "condition" is opposed to this idea of PROCESS either. I see "condition" as fluid and St. Gregory seems to be trying to emphasize this living fluidity, for lack of better terminology on my part.

His reference to pagan ideas of perfection seems to have to do with pagan philosphy. And if I'm not mistaken pagan philosophy saw a state of perfection as a finality of sorts where a person or thing stopped because there was nowhere else to go or nothing else to accomplish.

In Christ,

BOB

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Originally posted by theophan:
I think that your reference to "habitual holiness" is the PROCESS that St. Gregory is speaking about.
BOB
Oh ... OK smile

-ray


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This book is available in English translation from St. Vladimir's Seminary Press in Crestwood, Tuckahoe, New York, USA. It's been one of those I bought long ago and like to return to once in awhile.

In Christ,

BOB
Many thanks for that information Bob; I'll see if I can get my hands on that one. blessing, wg

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Dear theophan:

Yes - it has been years since I read Gregory of Nyssa - I read him over and over for several years when I first found him. I would take him to the woods and read undisturbed. So I have forgotten some of him - consciously - but he remains a sturdy stone in my own spiritual foundation.

If I can sing his praises for a moment�

He was one of the Alexandrian fathers - an off shoot of Clement and Origen and Evagirus (the father of all Christian monastic spirituality). He was one of the early fathers who, still was so close to biblical antiquities (through the catechetical school that Mark founded in Alexandria) who really knew the proper understanding of scriptural allegory and spiritual interpretation. Gregory�s description of the burning bush - remains burned (if you will) into my mind - even today and forever.

While some of the more zealous early fathers dismissed all classical learning and knowledge as pagan and the work of the devil - he believed that classical works and education contained some forms of truth - and were legitimate and worthy.

Zealous Christians were burning classical manuscripts - raiding libraries and making book bonfires of Homer, and Greek mathematicians, and Aristotle, and Jewish works of biblical commentary. Pagan gathers and rituals were being banned under penalty of death. These fundamentalist Christians became a prime reason why so much of biblical antiquities has been lost to us. If one was not Christian one was a �pagan�. The Christian persecution of pagans and all non-Christian literature reached it peak about 4th century (Gregory lived to about 394AD). Most modern scholars agreeing that it was the Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria who was responsible for the last and final burning of the great libraries of Alexandria (complying with an order from Caesar Theodosius who brought about the most ruthless purge of �pagans� across the Roman Empire).

Of course the more �level heads� finally prevailed in the Church and later came to make education in the classics and philosophy (what remained anyway) a required and fundamental part of the seminary formation for the priesthood.

As things would have it - over the last 75 years some of these lost manuscripts have been coming to light - in that paper was a rare thing - and so monks would �wash� the �pagan� manuscripts and re-use them in monastery libraries for Christian works. Such was the case of just recently the discovery of a manuscript of a Greek mathematician found under - the writing of an early monastic manuscript. Through special lighting and computer enhancements - the washed out Greek text was deciphered - and there - among the letters - was a theorem for correctly calculating the absolute volume of a triangle - something modern mathematicians with computers had struggled long on - and could not solved! (thank you Nova TV show).

While perhaps others may not recognize this �pivotal point� in Christianity which Gregory represents to me� I can say that it was Gregory who prevented me from even accidentally stumbling into the path of being a fundamentalist Christian. Like many Saints - when they were alive they were at odd with other �church fathers� - and stood against the tide - and then much later - were recognized for their courage under persecution (that persecution often coming from the powerful Hellenism �block� of church fathers within authorities of the Church itself).

I �second� your recommendation to WG to browse St. Gregory of Nyssa.

http://www.bhsu.edu/artssciences/asfaculty/dsalomon/nyssa/ref.html
But there is nothing quite like a book in the hand J

-ray


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ray:

I, too, must admit to having read St. Gregory many years ago. But it seems that like so many other such works it is a good thing to go back after one has a few more years praying and asking God and one's spiritual director for help to more fully understand the thoughts offered. That's why I said that he's one that I go back to once in awhile.

BOB

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