www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Personal holiness as a sign of Christianity

Hi RayK,

Perhaps we can run with this a while. If anybody else wants to join, the more the merrier!


I've almost always, until very recently, associated personal holiness to a Wesleyan tradition.

Though there is some evidence that Wesley had some knowledge of Orthodoxy, beyond the Anglo-catholic sort of 18th century England and Wales (mostly, but Ireland to a degree), he is often thought of as a father of 'holiness' in various protestant groups.

He put a lot of emphasis on Sanctification-- growth in holiness, after Salvation and as a fruit thereof. The state of being saved was a state of perfection into holiness. (paraphrasing is OK, isn't it!)

Is personal holiness something that those in Western/Eastern Catholic traditions are encouraged to do/be... outside of those who are the religious (priests, monks, nuns, etc.)?

We could go several ways with this... have a go! wg

I think the laity is called to personal holiness. Now many of us fall short of that and don't achieve it, but it's still a worthy goal. My understanding is that God wants all of us to be holy.

Please take as an example The Ladder, by St. John Climacus, which, while written for monastics, is equally applicable to the laity. Many other Fathers have written on this call to theosis.

Gaudior, thinking there are no two ways about this...

John and Charles Wesley were indeed champions of holiness. They were a thorn in the flesh to Reform Protestantism and show a distinct love for Eastern Christianity. More specifics as I've time.

Alex is a great lover of the Wesleys, btw.

Dan Lauffer, United Methodist Pastor for 27 years before I came all the way home.

As a prelude to my answer � let me define one term here to make things easier. If I may here, I am going to use the word �catholic� with a small �c� to indicate the combined churches that call themselves catholic. This would include the Byzantine, Latin (Roman), various Eastern including Orthodox, and Oriental etc� each with seven sacraments and common roots of an ordained priesthood.

Answer: Yes. Every catholic is invited to the further spiritual growth of personal holiness � above and beyond just being salvaged from destruction cased by sin.

If I understand you well - the catholic churches believe in the same way as what you describe as the Wesleyan tradition.

One may come - through progress in the spiritual life � to a habitual union with God before physical death (this is called the Mystical Marriage). We are all invited to mystical union (habitual and fully cognitive union with God before death). If we can call being �saved� a basic union of faith that Jesus is God (or at least God�s right-hand-man) � and that faith is the basic essential to be a Christian � we believe there is available a further transformation (verb) of heart and mind � that we are invited to. This daily way of life is called the �spiritual life� or the �mystical life�. It is a further cooperation on our part � with Providence.

God may save us from destruction � but it is then upon us ourselves to further that, to build upon it daily, into even more of a union with God.

You said� �a state of perfection into holiness. � and I can understand what you are saying. We would use different wording because we usually use �perfection� as a noun to indicate the final results of the actions of sanctification � reached only after years of cooperation with Providence. In our use of the word �perfection� it is usually used as the end result � a further goal to reach.

As regards the priesthood, monks, nuns, etc� for us � marriage is also a sacrament as is also the priesthood (being a monk or nun is not a sacrament) which means that to enter into marriage has the same calling to personal holiness as the priesthood. Not the same function � but the same call to a higher and further personal sanctification to holiness. These dedicated religious (priest, brother, monks, nun) it is their duty to encourage the rest of us to personal holiness. In a great way � it is their duty to serve to us what we need to reach our own personal holiness.

I happened to read Dan�s response and it looks to me that he might be familiar with the �translations� of terminology between yours and ours.

Understanding the terminology of the other takes great patience, understanding, listening, and charity. In the past we have all lacked these virtues � I pray that may we possess them now.

-ray

All the baptised faithful have a call to Holiness no matter what their vocation that was one of the strongest messages of the Second Vatican Council. Indeed, the Council produced a document on the unique apostolate on the layman and included the lay faithful and their role in its Dogmatic Constitution.

Lay people are called to Holiness in the 17th century St Francis de Sales actually wrote a book on the subject called 'The Introduction to the Devout Life', which is a manual for how lay people can go from mortal sin to mysticism. Giving meditations, advice and pointers of how to break with attachment to sin until one finally reaches God going through the purgative, illuminative and unitative stages set out by St Bonaventure.

In recent times this message has been taken up most strongly by John Henry Cardinal Newman whose motto 'heart speaks to heart' comes from one of St Francis de Sales' letters and, of course, Opus Dei. There is no question that the laity are supposed to called to holiness. Jesus' public ministry was just that: public. And the letters of the Apostles encourage personal piety.

Need I mention St Cyril of Jerusalem's advice to the average Christian or St John Chrysostom's encouragement to his audience to pray unceasingly even in the town's and cities?

And the 18th century book Abandonment to Divine Providence by the French priest Jean-Pierre Caussade - my personal favorite. Not a day goes by that I am not mindful of Caussade. My studies on saints have noted that a daily awareness of Providence (as Caussade outlines it) has been the cornerstone to all saints of all times. A 'secret' to holiness - which is not a secret.

And what was the book St. Bonaventure(sp) wrote? I can remember the name of it right now - a short book - perhaps "Conformity To The Will of God" no that was another saint - in any event - of all the books I have ever prized - Caussade - is it. Of all the saint I shall meet face to face after this life - Caussade (not officially declared a saint) shall be the first and receive my thanks the most. For over 10 years I re-read one of his letters - each day - slowly - as water seeps into earth - one each day. I have given so many copies of that book away - that I currently (yet again) do not have one myself.

-ray

Wild Goose..

By the way - if you have come to experience something of the catholic way (Eastern/Latin/Orthodox) you have somehow come exactly to the right board! No one here is out to convert anyone else. We all are spiritually feed by our own tradition and each other's traditions. But we do have a special going on this week if you wish to become an Armenian Catholic (little joke there).

I do not believe that you will find quite the same spirit at other larger boards. And while we all have our varied opinions here - the "tie that binds" us all to Christ is very evident in each participant at this board. We are a mix of Roman Catholic (Latin Church) and a few types of Eastern (Orthodox, and Byzantine), and I think a couple of Protestants, ... now all we need to do is find a Jew (hehe - a joke).

oh wait - Jesus was a Jew.

OK - "jew" is found!



-ray

Dear Wild Goose,

As you are from England, did you know of the connection between John Wycliffe and Jan Hus of Bohemia?

The term "Wild Goose" was used of Hus by his opponents.

But it was Hus himself who wrote to Sigismund while in prison that "your Goose is not cooked yet."

Are you a Hussite sympathiser then?

As you know, John Wesley read the Eastern Fathers rather widely and he himself said he honoured them all.

While it would take a good scholarly paper to properly demonstrate this, the case can be made that Wesley's dedication to holiness was rooted in his reading of Eastern Christian theology.

In the book, "A Rumour of Bishops" it is said that Wesley himself applied to Constantinople to be ordained a bishop by the Patriarch so that he could begin his church in the U.S. - according to the principle of "economia."

I understand that Sergius Bulgakov also once recommended to the various Protestant denominations that they accept the Seven Sacraments from the Orthodox Church on the same principle.

Wesley's rule of life is one that ALL Christians can easily adopt - or not so easily.

He prescribed, as you know, 1-3 hours of prayer, morning and night, the observance of prayer at the Apostolic Hours, bible-reading, fasting etc.

My favourite teaching from him is when he said, in a passage about examining one's conscience, "Do we truly believe we are only on this earth as visitors who will one day return to our Lord to give an account of how we served Him and the cause of His Church?"

Alex

St. Paul stated in his epistle to the Ephesians "But fornication and all uncleaness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting but rather giving of thanks."(Eph. 5:3-4)
"Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virture and if there is anything worthy of praise-meditate on these things."(Philipians 4:8)
Just some passages to ponder. There are many more but I don't have time to write them out now and I'm sure you've all heard them several times previously.
In Christ, Our Risen Lord,
Sarai

A kind of plain statement that - what is good is good - what is bad for us is bad for us. Now this is a spirituality I can understand.



-ray

and recently? where have you turned now?

-ray

I like St. Gregory of Nyssa's book From Glory to Glory wherein he describes the Christian life and the life of holiness as being PROCESS or an ongoing growth in relationship with Christ that begins now and continues into eternity. Even there, he suggests, there will be growth for us but unhampered by the distractions of this present age. St. Gregory says that "perfection" is a pagan idea because it implies a finality that is static whereas Christians should speak of "perfecting," a process that continues, that is living.

"Holiness" has the same root in the language as "wholeness" and seems to imply achieving a right relationship with Christ on all levels. So in our perfecting, we Christians are always a work in progress.

Hi Theophan,

I like the 'process,' the 'pagan' note (I agree*) and the 'wholeness' aspects of what the Saint had to say. Spot on! wg

* even if the cosmos should come to an end, our life in God in Christ would continue, by, in and through faith.

There would be no need for sermons, if our lives were shining; there would be no need for words, if we bore witness with our deeds. There would be no pagans, if we were true Christians.
St. John Chrysostom