www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Revelation 12

Wow.

I would like to THANK YOU ALL for this discussion. I has really helped me to put some pieces together. I hope it has been beneficial to others.

I would like to ask the permission of those who repled and stimulated things - that I can save a copy of this thread including replies. I would like a couple of people to read it. I am also thinking of posting it at my own web site.

I would change the names on the replies for futher autonomy. And no trace would be there to indicate it came from here.

It is a public forum and so I am free to copy it anyway - but I do ask before I do that.

-ray

That's fine by me... i've loved this discussion... but it doesn't have to end yet!

In fact, i just checked out Scott Hahn's book from my local library today. i started to read that online book you posted, but i want to print it out to read it (i don't like reading lengthy material on a computer screen).

Fascinating and wonderful stuff.

One comment and two questions, and please pardon my ignorance of Revelation:
Comment: When John first sees Jesus, he does see Him in the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle. Interesting - if you read in the OT what was located in the Tabernacle where Jesus is standing in John's vision you find the Bread of the Presence. Not a coincidence at all. This thread brought that to my attention, and for that i am very grateful. How beautiful and wonderful and physical (in the mass) this is!

Question 1:
Can you give me the chapter and verse references for this? i'm not doubting you - i'm afraid my knowledge of Revelation is scanty.

Question 2:
What about the seven bowls the angels pour out? How does this factor in?

Muchas gracias! Thanks so much!

More thoughts... how does this fit into the following passages:

Lastly, what about the early church fathers who seemed to speculate on the return of Christ?

i'm not trying to be in disagreement here - i'm just trying to understand and to hear a response.

Thanks again!

Peter is quoting from the book of Enoch. Apocalyptic literature which is very figurative, was written well before Jesus, and does not agree with John�s revelations IF you take them literally. Which gives us the choice of . . .

1) Peter is right and so that makes the book of Enoch right and John wrong.
2) John is right and that makes Peter and the book of Enoch wrong.
or...
3) Both Enoch and John are figurative apocalyptic literature and should not be taken literally nor as a �code� by which to decipher future events.

What about the speculation of many early fathers?
You named it - speculations.
Guessing.
Interesting... butnone of it is Council declarations.
Only Council declarations are - Council declarations.

Scott Hahn or Eugenio Corsini and some study time.

Cheers my inquisitive friend.
-ray

I have studied the beginner & intermediate courses at Scott's site and found it interesting and did motivate the grey matter.

james

and I have forgotten as much as I remember.

as many good papers as I have written I have now lost the same amount.

I would love to be a kid again - like you are

-ray

I have looked this up in my copy of the book of Enoch and I am not real sure if that is the origin. It may or may not be. If I have time I will investigate further because I only skipped to portions.

My English translation of Enoch is also not very trustworthy.

-ray

I had said that James quotes from the Book of Enoch... my memory faltered... Jude is the one who does that. He quotes Enoch for what the �fallen angels� teach humans of wickedness.

Peter is definitely paraphrasing from Enoch... where chapter 92 of the Book of Enoch begins its description of end times and the destruction of mankind and the desent of the

Enoch uses the apocalyptic form of dividing history up into 10 �weeks� from Adam to the coming of the messiah. Was it Daniel who used 72 weeks?

This was just the way this type of literature was done.

John Apocastasis (Revelations) uses the same divisions that the first four narrations of Genesis uses. That is, four major sections subdividing each into seven internal divisions. Hence, Genesis records history from Adam unto the re-creation (Noah) in four major narrations with each major narration subdivided internally into seven.

As I say, that is the form that the Apocostasis of John also used.

Here is John.

It opened with Jesus in the vestments of the High Priest on the day of Atonements as Jesus is about to pout out the blood libation (consult the Atonement ceremony of Jewish sources). It then goes into four major visions�

1) Letters (represents the Jewish scriptures which were the �letters� of messages of God through his prophets (literally messengers of the King). But these �messages� or prophecies are �sealed� which means that no one but someone with the authority to open them may understand them.

2) Seals - this represents the �opening� of the seals (understanding the prophecies)

3) Trumpets - the announcement of the imminent arrival of the King.

4) Bowels - the are knows to the Jews as the brazen bowels in which the blood of the sacrifice was collected. These bowls were passed hand over hand by a long line of priests - from the sacrificial altar to the holy of holies where they were then poured out on the ground in front of the Ark and some sprinkled onto the Ark itself.

At the pouring out of the 7 th bowel - the last section of the fourth vision - actually turns back upon the start of the whole thing. Remember that I said that as the start Jesus was paused in pouring out the bowel of his own blood. In the pouring out of the seventh bowel in the fourth vision (the end of the visions) one is to understand the connection - that now the bowel which Jesus was paused with has now been poured out.

Within each of the four major visions the history of mankind is given as the history from Adam to the messiah - in symbols.

As I say Daniel (or Ezekiel I do not remember which without looking it up) uses 72 weeks (or is it Ezdra?) in any event - these are a symbolic division according to significant events within the history of Israel. Mile stones if you will.

The books of Daniel, Ezekiel, Ezdra and Enoch - no matter which �format� they use - portray the events which precede the coming of the messiah - and the destruction of the wicked and the end of the world - in physical as well as symphonic ways. Each of these old testament apocalyptic items - makes it pretty clear as to how the evil men would be judged and punish and how a resurrection would be given to the faithful.

John claims by his arrangement of these old testament prophecies - is that Jesus took this all upon himself. In other words - that was to befall mankind upon the coming of the messiah - had actually fallen upon Jesus personally at his coming. He (Jesus) took upon himself the judgement and punishment that was meant for mankind as a whole.

=======

All this, of course, is lost when a person who does not know Jewish traditions and history and culture - reads these things.

Early Christians, still, as it were, an off-shoot of the Temple - but viewing themselves as restoring the Mosaic cult back to its original meaning - were well aware of these things. That knowledge began to fade as the Jesus cult (let us call it that for now) began to be more gentiles than Jews.

By a few centuries after Christ, and with the total destruction of the Jewish cult with the burning of the Temple in 70AD and the dispersion of the Jews, the Jewish roots of Christianity were fading from knowledge. And various Christian groups were at odds over these things and varied interpretations arose.

Hence was the need of Councils to nail things down for the future of Christianity.

The Christian doctrines (the doctrines of the Church) were set into written form. These doctrines were not really an exegesis of past scriptures - but rather a concise summation of the results.

The Church had little interest in declaring the meaning of so many passages of scriptures - book by book and line by line. By this time much of what is called �biblical antiquates� which is the understanding of difficult passages of the Old Testament - were lost and faded from memory - so many original Jewish people who began the church being now dead. What it rather did was codify some very important issues - which - if understood and believed - would not only give the Christian a good foundation - but would also put all scriptures into a proper context.

The church did make a valiant effort to collect what was left of biblical antiquates, but this book was itself lost over time.

What the Councils gave us is two fold. Part the codification of Christian faith - and part practical aspects and laws by which the social structure of the church organization should operate. Cannon laws.

Cannon laws are not infallible. They are not an item of revealed faith. And through history they would evolve and develop with the practical needs of the church within cultures and such� while the definitions of items of revealed faith are infallible - yet put into the words of language - (Greek and Latin) which words and phrasing depend upon how these words and phrases were used at the time of writing.

These infallible definitions and beliefs - can be used as a guide for understanding scriptures but they are not really and �explanation� of certain passages. For example - that God is a trinity does not appear at all in the NT but by knowing that God is a trinity it is very easy to see in the new testament that this fact is behind the much of what Jesus said. And so we Christians when reading the new testament - take it for granted that Jesus is speaking about the trinity (father, son, holy spirit) which non-Christians do not interpreter any of the NT in that way.

So if one understands that the early Councils condemned milleniarianisn - and that milleniarianism is a package (a physical return of Jesus and a 1000 year utopia) now one can use that as a guide for reading any of this stuff. Meaning - that anything which seems to read as if Jesus would be coming in some physical way at an �end time� and the earth destroyed with fire - etc� then one must reject that idea and look for the book or passage to mean - something else instead.

To sum it all up� Revelations is John proof to the Jews, that Jesus was indeed the messiah - and that all these end times judgments which were to befall the �physical world� and evil people - fell on Jesus - instead.

Because Jesus �absorbed� all these punishments that we humans �deserved� - all power and authority were �given� to Jesus. In other word these apocalyptic events came down upon Jesus himself - in his crucifixion - and not upon mankind in general. This gives Jesus the authority and power - to wield these evens upon the earth at his digression. But Jesus tells us that we should not look at the troubles that come to us on earth as a punishment for sins - but rather as his method of forming us - a repair - so to speak - when needed.

The Jewish concept of punishment comes upon the wicked and glory (success in life) comes to the faithful - was dispelled by Jesus several times. Also - by the book of Job. The man born blind was not born blind because of either his own sins nor the sins of his parents. The stone tower which fell upon pilgrims and killed then was not a punishment on them for their sins. And the Christian is made perfect by suffering trials and tribulations in his life. And so that which is the �end times� is now in the power and authority of him who �absorbed it�.

The �physical� apocalyptic descriptions of the Old testament are null and void - by being placed upon Jesus instead. This was John�s message to the Jews when he wrote �Revelations�.

Now I have put that in a simple way.

As a matter of fact, if anyone is interested I can perhaps begin a thread in which I can explain some of these things and put some of this to bed. I may do this anyway because it is a reoccurring trouble that Revelations and a milleniarian interpretation of it, and Matt 24, and such things is a reoccurring thing and very wide spread.

However - if I did that - the thread would disappear within a month and in a few months - all this stuff would re-appear again.

-ray

Dear Ray,

I have one question, is it your opinion or that of the Roman Catholic Church from what you understand that a physical return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in not expected?

Thank you in advance.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew the Latin Church expects the resurrection of all flesh, at the general judgement, some to go off to eternal life and others to eternal punishment.
Stephanos I

Dear Father,

Indeed, just like the Nicene Creed (which we both share), says...

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,...
...We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

In Christ,
Alice

I can not answer with authority for the Catholic Church, Fr. Stephanos I is an authority and I consent with his statement that �the Latin Church expects the resurrection of all flesh, at the general judgment�.

I can tell you that I myself understand the general judgment to be that same event which the Latin church calls the eschatological judgment which can only be realized beyond human history. (CCC 676) If I am mistaken and these two terms do not signify the same event - I trust he will tell us.

I am aware that it may appears to some that perhaps I deny the Second Coming as Fr. Stephanos I describes it above� just because I claim that the book of Revelations does not describe any type of physical events that take place at some future date within human history - and because I claim that the physical body of Jesus will not step again into human history.

I can give you my opinion and references to portions of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so that you may look these up yourself. The following is also what I myself understand to be the position of the Roman Catholic Church on the these subjects. If Fr. Stephanos tells us it is a different way - and that I am wrong - then I consent to what he would set forth as the faith of the Latin church and I will publicly withdraw all my opinions in this thread.

- - - - -

Now� If you are asking me: Will the human body of Jesus Christ come at some future date in time, in a public way and within history, in a way that we will be able to perceive it with any of our physical senses and know it�

I answer - no - to that. We will not experience anything of the physical human body of the Son of Man within history - again - except under the appearance of bread and wine as we do now. That public appearance of the physical body of Jesus was allow - once - at the time when Pontus Pilot governed Judea.

Further (and to the point which began this thread on Revelations) - I will say that any Old Testament prophesy of a coming of Jesus Christ as the Son of Man (his human body) into human history - has already been completely fulfilled in the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ at the time when Pontius Pilot governed Judea.

And I myself will say that John�s book of Revelations was also completely fulfilled in the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ at the time of Pontus Pilot. It looks forward to that event through re-capping the events of the history of Israel leading up to the appeared of the Son of Man (the human body of Jesus) which public appearance in history ended for all time and history with the ascension of his human nature into heaven.

My position should now be clear.


-----------

And now with references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The ascension of his glorified human body into heaven is irreversible (CCC 657) it remains hidden which means that it physical nature, now ascended and glorified, is unknowable and imperceptible to any of our human senses.

Christ�s �coming again� as the Son of Man will not take place again within human history and time (CCC 676) but that event is only realized (will come to be) beyond human history[I] as the essence of the eschatological judgment.

The coming of the Son of Man prophecies of the book of Daniel and their use by John in his book of �Revelations� - have [I]already been completely fulfilled in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus at the time of Pilot. (CCC 664). Nothing in Daniel nor in John�s Revelations is waiting a date of future fulfillment within time and human history.

I reject any concept that the Church is lacking any perfection and will be replaced at some future date with a new church (New Jerusalem descending from heaven). The current church - IS - the �New Jerusalem� here and now (CCC 2016 ) and we are as living stones built into this �holy city� which is the current church and which John calls the �New Jerusalem�. (CCC 765) Those who look for it (the New Jerusalem) to come into existence at some date in the future are overlooking the fact that it already exists right now.

I reject any concept of �end times� in which the current church will - pass away - and be replaced by a new-er church (New Jerusalem) and I understand that no new public revelation of Jesus Christ will be made within history because in his public appearance within history at the time of Pilot - that revelation of God was - complete - and all revelation and prophecy were closed with His own ascension and the death of the last apostle who could tell us of the human nature of Jesus. (CCC 65 and St John Cross) No new, or newer, or further revelation of the human nature of Jesus Christ is to come at some future date in public history.

The brackets are my own elucidations.

Scripture is entirely open in meaning since the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (CCC 112). Because ALL prophecies of scriptures (Old Testament and New Testament) have their meaning in that Passover event. No further public revelation of Jesus the messiah - is yet to come. His human nature will not be experience within history - again.

As my last suggestion please read this portion of the introduction to The Revelations of John in The New American Bible the Catholic Translations in which, whoever wrote the introduction, is in agreement with my own stance (or I agree with him)� that the events of John�s book - have already unfolded - already taken place - already completed in the public history of Jesus of Nazareth - while the triumph of God within the personal and individual Christian remains a mystery that continues. I have underlined that portion.

Keep in mind when reading it that the �present age� of human history that we are currently in is the age of Jesus Christ and his church. As long as human history exists - it continues to be the age of Jesus Christ. The presence of Jesus Christ in his glory comes - beyond human history. While symbolically it is said that human history ends (the age ends) the church uses the term - beyond - the domain of history. Beyond the realm in which human history takes place. That is - beyond the realm of the physical nature of the body.




OK. Gotta go� the cops just called and my youngest son was clocked over 80. I guess he has not read Revelations yet J his keys are - history!
Anytypos will have to stand.

-ray

(as it turned out my son was chasing a guy who was wanted by the cops - the cops were nice and told him "don't do that - we do that. You could have gotten killed. He could have had a gun.")

-ray

Ray, brother in Christ,

Will include your son and you in our night prayers tonight. Hope all is calm now.

Thanks be to God he is okay.

Peace of Christ,

Mary Jo <><

O how I lament the folly of my youth, in that I did not know my Lord and his teaching . I can confess with the Blessed Father Augustine, "to late have I loved Thee oh wisdom ever lasting."

Im my recent study and reflection about the resurrection of the dead, I have found some interesting things which im my feeble ignorance I will attempt to share.

I was reminded of the text from the OT

"For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another."

Stephanos I

PS Some things to keep in mind and reflect upon with the upcoming post:
sarx
basar
carne