www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Revelation 12

On the contrary, RayK, i am benefitting tremendously from this conversation. i do agree with what you are saying - i'm just in the "i don't really understand or know" camp. i offered the line from the creed to see how you would respond, and you have done so magnificently.

Thank you for this discussion! i hope others join in and it continues.

Glory be to our risen Lord Jesus who is the Christ - He who has not left us but is with us now and always.

Good! At times I try to be careful because it does not do good to throw someone into confusion - it is better to leave them in their current understanding.

I am sure Stephanos and I would come to a closer agreement if I had the time to really work out terms and such. Terminology can really trip things up.

While I am very familiar with the concepts of the Old Testament and how to interrogate the Hebrew properly, these concepts carry through to the Greek but it takes me a long time to interrogate the Greek properly. Translators are human and so since translation is no way a word for word substitution translators are free to translate any portion of text (word choice) by what they assume the text is going to be saying. I worked three days on 2 Thessalonians and found the portions that I was interested in not only could be translated toward the meaning that I supposed - but that by doing that - the text became much more flowing - Paul make a point and then immediately uses the point the has just made. The whole letter moves from Paul seemingly making almost isolated �pontifical� statements to a natural human flow in which the entire letter binds together.

Christianity is a �mystery religion�. It professes a union with the deity. We can tend to forget that even while we receive the mystery of communion each Sunday.

I am always amazed that at the peak of Christendom (Europe, Spain and such before the Reformation) the steps of the mystical life were well know and it was almost a competition as to living a spiritual life of the church. The concept that Providence was involved in the daily affairs of your life was taken for granted. Saints (in the RC) were popping up all over the place� John of the Cross, Cure De Aris, Montfort, Catherine of Siena, Francis... On and on � A whole crop - which has never been equaled. For these people (let alone the core of church doctrine) a physical return of Jesus in any way was - just not on the table. Jesus in his resurrected nature was Providence, the Logos, pervading all things and all events. Those not aware of Providence were motivated by the seeming necessities of human efforts and fate, destiny, and science. Those who were acutely aware of Providence placed themselves under its governing and in doing so came to know more and more that it is a living being - the person of Christ.

In a very real way, Jesus came in human body in order to return our attention to his mystical body (the Logos, the Word, the reality of the supra intelligent and living nature of a Providence which governs all things and events. He always - always - pointed us - back to his Father and his father�s universal status as creator. Not just a creator who created all things a long time ago and then sat back to watch the gears of creation turn by themselves and only occasionally getting involved (that is the concept of a Greek god) but a creator who at every moment - creates - the moment. Each moment.

Surely there is some type of final physical resurrection for us - because we are not wholly human without the two natures (spirit and body) which we are composed of. At some �point� all the effects of sin will have to be removed from us. But how that will be done is completely our of our reach of intellect and imagining. Try as we may to put some �face� on it� to guess at it (will our physically body come out of the grave???) there is nothing that we know of that really applies. The physical body in the grave WAS my body when I could move it and experience through it - but is it - mine - any longer?? Is the promise to my body that it will resurrect? Or is the promise to me - that I will resurrect and - my body - will be like Christ�s? These things are really - beyond us.

When Jesus said that �no man knows the day - only the father knows� he was speaking as a Jew within Jewish theology and so the word �day� here does not mean a 24 hour period - it rather means an unspecified span in which we become conscious of the event being spoken of. �On that day� means - at the moment you come to experience the event. And so it is clear that no man still in the body CAN know the event. The Jewish prophets ALWAYS used the phrase �on that day� to mean: �when it happens�.

One can read and learn all about cancer - but one does not - know cancer - until one - has - cancer. One can read all about death and know all the details - but one does not - know death - until it happens to them.

This is all that Jesus is saying. No man can know the event of the judgment and resurrection - before it happens to them personally. God already knows it personally for every man because it already exists within the eternity of God�s knowing�. but man does not know it - until it comes to his direct and personal experience. In the same way that a dog can not know the math of the cycles of the sun and moon - man has not the capability to know anything about the event.

But clearly - that �supra� event - has it ripples within time. The resurrection - to life {spiritual life within the mind and that effect reverberated in the body) certainly is contained in the mystical union that the church has as - central - to itself. There is nothing more - that the church centers on and revolves around - than mystical union with God. It is the very fountain from which all doctrine and sacraments of the church originate from and return to like a magnet.

OK� Cathy has to use the computer so it is time for me to stop yaking.

-ray

Whoa! All of this is either too profound or too confusing.

Question:

1) Revelation, does that mean it doesn't illustrate the future events? That it only refers to the time of Christ? I've always thought Revelations is like "prophecy" of the future events.

2) Matthew 24 is very clear about the Coming of Christ after the tribulation (tribulation is pretty clear too). All the things being said in that chapter describes things physically (i.e. the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give it's light, the stars will fall from the sky, etc.)...and on the tribulation part (i.e. a person must not go to his house and get his things, whoe to pregnant women and nursing mothers these days, pray that your flight not be in winter or on the sabbath...so on).

Now, SUN is physical, so is the moon, so is the star, etc. The tribulation part, a man (physical being body and spirit) must not get his things (material things), pregnant women, etc. All are physical.

Then it talks about the coming of Son of Man upon the clouds (I take it as physical cloud) of heaven..will send out His angels to collect people (for judgement?). He even said that the Heaven and earth will pass away.

Why would Jesus play with words as if He doesn't mean it? So, I'd have to question your thoughts on why you're not believing that there will be a 2nd Coming of Christ? (of course the scriptures didn't say "Second" Coming). But it is obvious that these events didn't happen 2,000 years ago when Christ came on earth through Mary, as these events (sun darken, moon not giving light, all these tribulations, etc) wasn't recorded in history books, so it must not have happened YET.

Look at Matt Chapter 25, judgement of nations..I take it it means physical nations such as USA, Germany, Israel, China, etc. and will divide the nations as he will divide mankind from goats and sheep. It seems to be ONE event rather than many events (each human deaths is counted as one event..so therefore holds the belief in individual judgement). But this ONE event in Chapter 25 means it happens to many people at the same time.

Chapters 24 and 25 is very challenging, because it's very similar to the Revelations, because it speaks of prophecy.

I'm going off subject here for just a moment, I was watching TV the other day (EWTN I think) and somebody said that in order to have resurrection (of mankind), one must die. I was thinking to myself, "How can this be? IF Jesus will come to judge the LIVING and the dead? Does that mean the living will die?" If the living will die, then there would be NO living..so that would contradict to our creed...Judge the LIVING "AND" the Dead.

Hmmm???

Anyway, I hope and pray that NO heresies are taught here, as it's very difficult to understand the Revelations. Of course this post is a little difficult to understand here. I hope there is a theologian and a bishop would read this post and give "stamp of approval" to give us peace of mind that we're not speaking falsely here. If you want, you can PM to discuss this with me privately, one on one, to help me understand my feeble mind, and also my language is behind most people here due to my hearing disability, so bear with me.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

PS, OH BY the way, if you remember the Ascension, where the Apostles were staring at a physical clouds in the physical sky the angels appeared, "why are you staring? Jesus is taken up and He will come down the same way as He (just) left here." So that would indicate the (second) Coming of Christ.

SPDundas:

Let me paste a few brief parts of the introduction printed before the Book of Revelation in the NAB translation:
_______________________

The Apocalypse, or revelation of John, the last book of the bible, is one of the most difficult to understand because it abounds in unfamiliar and extravagant symbolism . . . Symbolic language . . . is one of the chief characteristics of apocalyptic literature, of which this book is an outstanding example.

This much . . . is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realisitically.
_______________________
I've been taught this same thing before, but these few lines summarize the Catholic and Orthodox approach. We don't read this book literally. Many Protestants, especially those who insist on a literal interpretation of every line of Scripture, do take it literally. That may be part of the confusion.

To go on--
________________________

. . . the book presents the decisive struggle of Christ and his followers against Satan and his cohorts as already over.

The Book of Revelation had its origin in a time of crisis, but it remains valid and meaningful for Christians of all time. . . .
No matter what adversity or sacrifice Christians may endure they will in the end triumph over Satan and his forces because of their fidelity to Christ the victor.
________________________

In Christ,

BOB

The Book of Revelation is encouraging to me as basically what happens is the good guys win. Getting into interpreting every line can cause confusion. I don't think it is meant to be understood in that sense but the Spirit behind it is there to give us blessed hope.

My favorite verses are: Rev. 21:3-4

[And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their god. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, ..."

In Christ and the Theotokos,


Mary Jo

Mary Jo,

That is one of my favorite verses in Revelation! It gives me HOPE that all that is good will end well.

Theophan,

Thanks for the remarks. I was well aware of the level of difficulty to interpret Revelations, a book filled with symbolism. However, what about Matthew 24 and 25? It seems to be similar to the Revelation? These two Chapters in the Gospel, is difficult for me to comprehend. Thoughts???

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

[ However, what about Matthew 24 and 25? It seems to be similar to the Revelation? These two Chapters in the Gospel, is difficult for me to comprehend. Thoughts???]

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Hi SPDundas,

I know you are asking for Bob's response(which, no doubt will be forthcoming)but I love to ponder those two chapters from Matthew myself. A Dominican theologian I once knew and studied under said that he told those non-Catholics who strongly advocated "end times" doctrine that Matthew 25 was HIS 'end times doctrine."

I think he meant mainly the last part of Matthew 25 where Jesus is saying in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats ---"Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?" "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

I loved that and it has stayed with me ever since.

But as to the understanding of those two chapters I think we need to keep in mind they are full of parables. The Lord's parables are mainly to teach, shock us into awareness of some important but somewhat hidden reality, and encourage us to repent and change.

Through the parables we are told things we can do in preparation(Parable of the Ten Virgins) and what kind of action and attitude we must have towards others. This is done by the use of stories and symbols.

And we also read in Matt: 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." And this is true for all of us each day as we continue our Christian walk. Hope this makes a little sense and helps.


In Christ and the Theotokos,


Mary Jo aka Porter.

It seems to me that when we look at the entire Book of Revelation the highly symbolic context was written outside the context of space and time although the subject matter is relative and not relative to space and time.

We know that the mysteries (sacraments)put forth physically within the ark of salvation are also at the same time a spiritual reality. We have recieved the gift of the seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of truth who we are to embrace at all times. We know that Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ became man and walked on the earth and suffered and was physically crucified. It is beyond my ability to comprehend the spiritual weight of the sins of the world. We also know that Christ did physically rise from the dead on the third day. The point being that there is a relationship between the physical and the spiritual and the realm in which we are to live as Christians in the world, but not of the world.

We often hear of the historic or present references or misinterpretations taken out of or inappropriately adjusted within the context Book of Revelation and conveyed often by others who are not of the Orthodox Catholic faith. Nowadays we hear of a popular numerical attribute even though some ancient text read 667, 616 and not the more often mentioned 666. The direction of the reference as I understand the Aramaic reads it is man, it is man, it is man, a rather inclusive translation.

In Orthodox thought as in ancient times the forehead is symbolic thought. The right hand is symbolic of action. As such paying attention to a physical display of numbers is an inclusive part of the deception of the filthy and evil one. Paying attention to our own thoughts or those that are not ours and our actions is not a distraction. It would not be consistent with the machinations of the evil one to physically stamp numbers on people�s heads or right hands for everyone to see. It seems to me that all we can do as Orthodox Christians is put forth our very our best efforts and struggle to the end to be men or woman of the Christian race, so that we may hear the most blessed words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ;

Matthew 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

I think the aforementioned is at the heart of what Ray is conveying. It is no small wonder that the Book of Revelation is not read as part of the Liturgical cycle within the Orthodox Church. There had been quite a bit of opposition to even including it in the Bible, Saint John Chrysostom comes to my mind in that regard.

It seems to me that if we look at the entire Book of Revelation keeping things in context and trying to understand things from that attitude or perspective is of the utmost importance relative to reading Holy writ and the understandings of the fathers of the Church.

We know that in the Orthodox and Catholic faith we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come. It is a reality that is lived in the time of the eighth day within the ark of salvation; it also is anticipated physical reality.

I'm often overwhelmed during Pascha and think of the New Jerusalem, which is the Orthodox Church as mentioned in Revelation.

Particularly, when I hear "Shine, shine, new Jerusalem! For the glory of the Lord has dawned over you. Dance now and be glad Sion; as for you, pure One, rejoice in the resurrection of your child."

Symbolisms may shift indeed.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew 24

Here are my study notes on Matthew 24... it is about the curcifixtion and resurrection... the troubles that the apostles would face and thier own deaths.

As far as Matthew 24 'predicts' into the future is as far as the death of each apostle.

http://www.thegenesisletters.com/Letters/Matthew24.htm

I am sorry for the condition of the notes.

-ray

Ray,

Thanks for the information regarding Matthew 24 above which I am going to check out as soon as my second set of company this week comes and goes.

After a wee break this past week I have been back posting today and just wanted you to know that I read through this thread and do so appreciate your thoughtful and extensive work in these postings. I am sure there are others who appreciate it as well.

Be encouraged, dear brother in Christ, and may He continue to abundantly bless you, Cathy, the boys, and Buck.


Mary Jo...

SPDundas

I think our more erudite brethren have posted what I would have commented on concerning Matt 24 and 25 in answer to your question.

I believe that we are always in the "End Times" as far as the Scripture is concerned. If we understand the Liturgy, we already participate in the "End Times" each time we are involved. Eternity is a concept that we only barely grasp at and its relationship to our time is one that has no precise fit as I have come to wrestle with it. I have pondered the idea that what I am doing at this present moment is already being played for the whole world at the Final Judgment. It seems to give some idea of the complicated interplay between time and eternity that these chapters and Revelation seem to grasp at.

Revelation seems to be a book that is written after all the events have taken place in a form that makes history appear to be the future so as to be prophecy. Therein seems to lie the whole problem of reading and interpretation that you pose.

I have a multi-pronged approach to my own study of Scripture based on the fact that we live in a Protestant-oriented culture that leaps immediately to literalism when reading Scripture. To avoid that type of literalism and to find out what the Church teaches in every area, first, I use several Church-approved texts and read them together, when necessary, to understand a passage or chapter. Second, I make extensive use of the notes provided in each translation. Then I go to my spiritual director, confessor, or pastor to ask for further clarification. I am always seeking the answer to the question a Christian should ask in every inquiry: what does the Church teach or interpret in this matter/area/passage/doctrine?

As a final addition, I also have come here and asked about commentaries that have helped others since my budget is limited and I cannot afford the luxury of buying all of the available resources.

But in all things I endeavor to avoid my own interpretation in the event it might lead me astray from Christ's teaching found within the Church.

BOB

Thanks again to everyone here. i am surely being enriched by this conversation.

Would this be akin to a typological view of the Old Testament - that is, events that transpired in the past are echoed throughout history in various ways until they find their complete fulfillment (pardon if i'm getting that wrong)?

I read the Old Testament as my own family history. By being incorporated into Christ by Baptism, I have been adopted into that Covenant as well as the New. I share in the promises made there. I am part of the walk with God that these ancestors of mine, by faith, have walked. And by reading it aloud, I find the barriers of time, space, and distance dissolved so that the lessons they teach are immediate to me.

Most of what I see is the constant interaction of these brethren of mine with God. God gives, they fall, God forgives, they try again: a life lesson for me, too. God leads, they learn, God teaches to build on top of what was before, they learn some more: sounds like my life and pilgrimage.

As for trying to find a definite for the end times or how we are to definitely see it coming, I've been exploring the idea of pleasant surprise in my relationship with God. The surrender to His Holy Will that this takes is a tough one for a stubborn guy like me. But I am starting to allow Him to lead the way instead of charging along and wondering why He hasn't caught up.
________________________
Would this be akin to a typological view of the Old Testament - that is, events that transpired in the past are echoed throughout history in various ways until they find their complete fulfillment (pardon if i'm getting that wrong)?
________________________

Possibly. I'll ask Him when I get the chance. Until then, you will get more from our more inspired and learned brethren here and in your parish church. Me? I'm continuing my pilgrimage with a different attitude--lead me, Lord, to understanding with the gifts you have given and the blessed people around me who can cast Your Light on my darkened understanding.

BOB

If you are talking about the images or 'types' of prophecy - you are almost right.

The word prophecy means �to understand deep things�. And it is only related to God. It comes from a Hebrew word of Northern Israel which means �messenger of the King�. The Hebrew word is Nevi�im.

All prophecy before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - took its meaning from the actual event of that �coming� (revealed to mankind through the resurrection). And so Jesus (on the road to Emmaus) read through the book of Moses (Genesis, Exodus etc�) and the books of the other prophets (all written centuries before the birth of Jesus) and pointed out in the images how it was foretold that he would be treated, crucified, and resurrect. End of old testament story. Close book.

All prophecy after the historical event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - MUST look - back - on the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That is why it is called prophecy. It is related to that revelation (coming) of the Son of Man .

Here is where people get fouled up - they equate prediction with prophecy. These are not the same thing. The old testament did not �predict� the life of Jesus - it gave - prophecy - concerning that event.

Prediction of future events (stuff that may take place in the near of far future) is not prophecy. It is - prediction - and has nothing to do with God. It is not necessarily bad (some of us might be able to be intuitively or or through reason) predict who will be the next president. But that is not prophecy and it has nothing to do with God. Prediction is prediction and it is bad when it pretends (or is misunderstood) to have something to do with God.

Because prophesy is only related to - and takes its meaning from - the historical event of the crucifixion and resurrection of - Jesus Christ. Period. End of definition.

Simple really. Just all confused up by movies, TV, and people who mistakenly think that prediction of the future is prophecy.

God does not care one bit at all to tell us any events of the future any more. His son - came. He now wants us to look - back - on his son�s coming.

Within the Mosaic span� prophecy DID (I was going to use the word predict but that is not a correct use of the word) prophecy DID reflect historical events which would take place in the future - but only those events which were directly related to his son�s coming. All that prophecy was fulfilled - in the event of the crucifixion and resurrection (the �coming�) of Jesus. Fulfilled. No more. End of story.

�. now listen�

Nothing more of the future would be revealed - because the most important event in all history - took place in the three days of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What could be more important than that? Nothing - in God's mind. That wa sit - the pinnical of creation. That was - �it�. The big day. Nothing in the future will top it.

Q: Why ? (you might ask)
A: Because the one purpose of prophecy is to point to the - coming of Jesus Christ.

[[Prophecy before Jesus ===> the coming <==== Prophecy after Jesus]]

Once he came and was revealed to mankind and history as the messiah that was predicted to be coming� that was it. All done. Fulfilled. Completed. Nothing more to be revealed.

Get it? J

Any genuine prophecy after that historical event - looks back on that event and takes its meaning from that event.
Prophecy before Jesus Christ contained revelation of the future in as much as iy pointed to Jesus. We could �bend� a word and say prophecy before Jesus predicted the future up to the historical event of Jesus - but - that would be an improper use of the word �predict�.

Prophecy after the event of Jesus Christ has no �predictive� quality of the future. Period. Prophecy after the event of Jesus Christ is now solely concerned with understanding the �deep things� of that event.

I said it several times in several different ways because so many people are used to thinking other wise.

Under this �rule� (all prophecy before Jesus looks forward to the event of Jesus - all prophecy after Jesus looks back to the event of Jesus) - under this rule - that makes the book of Revelations (written well after Jesus) to be a book which points BACK to the vent of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which is 110% totally correct.

The Book of Revelations (its real name is Apocostasis which means �the restoration of al things�), written by a Jew (John) and intended to be read by Jews or those gentiles who were aware of the Jewish prophecies which foretold about the coming of Jesus Christ - is a concise history from the first Adam to the new Adam (Jesus). It is written in steeped in the �language� and imagery of the Old Testament. And it is very tied to the prophecies in Daniel and Ezekiel - prophecies of - the �coming� of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. It looks back onto that historical event. And it is intended to be proof to the Jew and gentiles who are aware of Jewish prophecy that Jesus Christ who was crucified and resurrected - is none other than the messiah who was to come.

Who ever read Revelations and tries to predict the future from it - might as well stare at tea leaves in a cup - or find faces in the clouds. That kind of thing tells us much more about the person �reading� the symbols and nothing about God.

I think I already posted information about who to read for Revelations. Scott Hahn is good and Eugenio Corsini is the best.
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/PrivateLibrary/Corsini/Corsini.htm

Chhers.
-ray

If you are talking about the images or 'types' of prophecy - you are almost right.

The word prophecy means �to understand deep things�. And it is only related to God. It comes from a Hebrew word of Northern Israel which means �messenger of the King�. The Hebrew word is Nevi�im.

All prophecy before the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - took its meaning from the actual event of that �coming� (revealed to mankind through the resurrection). And so Jesus (on the road to Emmaus) read through the book of Moses (Genesis, Exodus etc�) and the books of the other prophets (all written centuries before the birth of Jesus) and pointed out in the images how it was foretold that he would be treated, crucified, and resurrect. End of old testament story. Close book.

All prophecy after the historical event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ - MUST look - back - on the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

That is why it is called prophecy. It is related to that revelation (coming) of the Son of Man .

Here is where people get fouled up - they equate prediction with prophecy. These are not the same thing. The old testament did not �predict� the life of Jesus - it gave - prophecy - concerning that event.

Prediction of future events (stuff that may take place in the near of far future) is not prophecy. It is - prediction - and has nothing to do with God. It is not necessarily bad (some of us might be able to be intuitively or or through reason) predict who will be the next president. But that is not prophecy and it has nothing to do with God. Prediction is prediction and it is bad when it pretends (or is misunderstood) to have something to do with God.

Because prophesy is only related to - and takes its meaning from - the historical event of the crucifixion and resurrection of - Jesus Christ. Period. End of definition.

Simple really. Just all confused up by movies, TV, and people who mistakenly think that prediction of the future is prophecy.

God does not care one bit at all to tell us any events of the future any more. His son - came. He now wants us to look - back - on his son�s coming.

Within the Mosaic span� prophecy DID (I was going to use the word predict but that is not a correct use of the word) prophecy DID reflect historical events which would take place in the future - but only those events which were directly related to his son�s coming. All that prophecy was fulfilled - in the event of the crucifixion and resurrection (the �coming�) of Jesus. Fulfilled. No more. End of story.

�. now listen�

Nothing more of the future would be revealed - because the most important event in all history - took place in the three days of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What could be more important than that? Nothing - in God's mind. That wa sit - the pinnical of creation. That was - �it�. The big day. Nothing in the future will top it.

Q: Why ? (you might ask)
A: Because the one purpose of prophecy is to point to the - coming of Jesus Christ.

[[Prophecy before Jesus ===> the coming <==== Prophecy after Jesus]]

Once he came and was revealed to mankind and history as the messiah that was predicted to be coming� that was it. All done. Fulfilled. Completed. Nothing more to be revealed.

Get it?

Any genuine prophecy after that historical event - looks back on that event and takes its meaning from that event.

Prophecy before Jesus Christ contained revelation of the future in as much as iy pointed to Jesus. We could �bend� a word and say prophecy before Jesus predicted the future up to the historical event of Jesus - but - that would be an improper use of the word �predict�.

Prophecy after the event of Jesus Christ has no �predictive� quality of the future. Period. Prophecy after the event of Jesus Christ is now solely concerned with understanding the �deep things� of that event.

I said it several times in several different ways because so many people are used to thinking other wise.

This "rule" is actually contained in early Council documents. All revelation is - closed. Completed fully in Jesus Christ. There is nothing more to be revealed. The revelation of Jesus Christ was perfect and complete with his crucifixtion and ressurection. End of story. Nothing more to come.

Under this �rule� (all prophecy before Jesus looks forward to the event of Jesus - all prophecy after Jesus looks back in a deep undersatding of the event of Jesus) - under this rule - that makes the book of Revelations (written well after Jesus) to be a book which points BACK to the event of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which is 110% totally correct.

The Book of Revelations (its real name is Apocostasis which means �the restoration of al things�), written by a Jew (John) and intended to be read by Jews or those gentiles who were aware of the Jewish prophecies which foretold about the coming of Jesus Christ - is a concise history from the first Adam to the new Adam (Jesus). It is written in steeped in the �language� and imagery of the Old Testament. And it is very tied to the prophecies in Daniel and Ezekiel - prophecies of - the �coming� of Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection. It looks back onto that historical event. And it is intended to be proof to the Jew and gentiles who are aware of Jewish prophecy that Jesus Christ who was crucified and resurrected - is none other than the messiah who was to come.

Who ever read Revelations and tries to predict the future from it - might as well stare at tea leaves in a cup - or find faces in the clouds. That kind of thing tells us much more about the person �reading� the symbols and nothing about God.

I think I already posted information about who to read for Revelations. Scott Hahn is good and Eugenio Corsini is the best.
http://www.thegenesisletters.com/PrivateLibrary/Corsini/Corsini.htm

John's narration begins and we see Jesus standing inside the Holy of Holies dressed in high priest vestments on the day of Atonement. Jesus is paused - just about to pour out the blood of the sacrifice upon the Ark - and he speaks with John.

Most people are not Jews so they would not recognize the description of his garments to be the one time of the year that the High Priest wore - white. The day of Atonement.

We can �see� inside the Holy of Holies because the curtain had just been ripped - at the moment of his death on the crosss - and now for the first time - we can �see� inside - and who is it inside?? It is Jesus Christ as High Priest just about to pour our the brazen bowel which is filled with the blood of the sacrificial lamb (his own blood this day) - and he speaks with John.

Four visions are given�. Actually one vision - repeated four times in varied Old testament imagery well known to Jews.

At the end of the fourth vision - the bowel (which he had paused) is now pour out onto the ground in front of the Ark - the earth trembles and Jesus Christ is resurrected.

You see? John�s book opens with his death and closes with his resurrection. But between that is recounted directly from old testament images and prophecies - the history of Israel from the fall of Adam to the restoration in Jesus.

-ray